Dave Kishpaugh's (Jeep West) geometry correction brackets are now available

[HornedToad]

When my jeep was new to me (stock non-rubicon unlimited on stock size ko2s), my brother and I took it out to a local recreation area (the kind that suites atvs and utvs with all sorts of dirt roads, hills, and obstacles everywhere going nowhere). We had been there several times before in his lifted xj (on 33s) and there were these steep hills we would always attempt to climb but could never make it up (tires would start spinning out 1/3 of the way). The only vehicles we ever saw make it up these steep, loose hills were long wheelbase razrs. When we took my stock unlimited, we were amazed to find that I could easily drive all the way to the top of these hills with no drama whatsoever. It wasn't even a challenge.
My jeep is now on 33s and savvy short arms with 3-ish inch springs and to make a long story short, I have not made it up those same hills with my new setup. The tires spin easily and the jeep bucks around a bit.
There are much wiser members than me here that can explain what happened in this situation I just shared but my take away is this - factory control arm geometry is desirable for steep climbs.
I purchased a set of Dave's geo correction brackets because they seem very promising with their function of bringing the control arms closer to factory angles in a short arm lifted application (btw I don't care or buy into all the other fluff regarding wheel arc, rear steer, etc.). The problem is they are very tall and after some preliminary measurements it has become clear to me that I won't be able to maintain the 6" of up-travel I worked hard to achieve. For now they are sitting on a shelf and I may shorten them 1 inch and do a modified install without re-drilling the frame side lower control arm mount. Maybe. In the mean time I have to decide if all that work is worth it and if I will ever realistically take my jeep places where control arm geometry really counts.

 

[Jorge Bolivar]

i'm sorry for not keeping up with all the geo correction bracket threads, i do try skim through sometimes.

Is no way to keeping up w it. Same as other good treads....

i think i understand what the thought behind this geo correction kit is, but does this kit change available usable up travel?

How much of up travel we are talking about and Why is so important to you?

and i'm not a fan of lowering the frame end of the LCA either, but if it's a SA behind a wheel (no protruding length forward) it's not a big deal i guess.

Am not fan either but room is limited, very limited.

i think i saw you need to add some bump? that puts me out right away, not givin up room i just bought (but many others could/might with no ill effects depending on primary use).

Keep on mind, after this mod the flex increment. Bump stop may need to be tuned.

as far as correction, i believe the link spread between upper and lower CA's might be helping considerably once wheel size increases.

And wheelbase increase magically happen with tire size increase.

both do things to fix what the 3"+ SA F's up.

That’s how I see it, others will not.

 

[someguysjeep]

fluff, do you not understand how they effect the axle? @HornedToad

 

[someguysjeep]

How much of up travel we are talking about and Why is so important to you?

all of it.
i didn't put a 4" lift on cause i like climbing into the jeep, i did it to gain room for the axle to have more room to move and get them big ass tires up n over.

i run whats similar to a mid arm only because that's where i wanted my mounts placed. link length was a byproduct of my attempt at correction.

 

[Jorge Bolivar]

all of it.

Expect a number, make it easier for discusión.

i didn't put a 4" lift on cause i like climbing into the jeep, i did it to gain room for the axle to have more room to move and get them big ass tires up n over.

One of the very few that say mention add 4” lift not for climbing in our area. Totally get it, what tire size?

i run whats similar to a mid arm only because that's where i wanted my mounts placed. link length was a byproduct of my attempt at correction.

Got you.
I think the term mid-arm apply to any link measure that’s fall between short and long.

 

[jjvw]

You mention there isn't anything unstable about the midarm. Did you outboard and do the mid arms at the same time? Or did you have an opportunity to run one without the other? That's another one of those curious pieces for me. I know geo correction helps solve some problems. So do good shocks that are properly tuned. You say the shocks are more important that the geo. But what if the geo negates the need for expensive tuned shocks? I don't know that it does. That's not what I'm saying. But if shocks are the key to controlling wheel hop and roll characteristic on lifted TJ... What if you can "fix" the cause of the wheel hop and excessive roll before it even has an opportunity to start, so to speak?

I think that's why this intrigues me so much.

My mid arm went on almost a year before I did the rear outboard. There were no other changes at that time. Again the differences on pavement were miniscule. I daily drove this setup all around Colorado with about a 3.5" spring lift, the old style OME shocks and an Antirock.

If my Jeep was somehow unusually unstable after, then it was unusually unstable before. Which it wasn't.

I knew after the rear outboard and the tune I happened upon that there was something special there that I needed to continue to pursue. I won't go into the full details, except that I began to recognize the extent that shocks were able to define the ride quality and control the movements of the vehicle. Done well, it is very dramatic. And now that the fronts are done and all four corners have the updated tune that the rears came to me with, all my predictions and expectations have been exceeded.

I have no doubt that the short arm geo correction kit has real and noticable improvements over stock, especially where roll is concerned. But reducing roll is also achievable though shocks (and sway bars) and with them, a broader range of handling improvements that cannot be gained through geometry alone.

 

[jjvw]

Got you.
I think the term mid-arm apply to any link measure that’s fall between short and long.

The numbers and measurements that often get bandied about become silly and unhelpful. When we build we are building to make stuff fit and to make stuff go where we want it to. The arm lengths, compressed and extended lengths, bump stop extensions, etc are simply byproducts.

 

[jjvw]

What leads you to choose Mid Arm over the many solutions out there?

Because I have a decent grasp of suspension geometry, even if some here think otherwise.

 

[Blackjack]

The geometry correction here in and of itself is interesting where it addresses roll center and potentially the antisquat. Potentially. I know what I was seeing, so I'm not on board yet. The rest comes across as a lot of uneeded hyperbole for the sake of a bolstering a sales pitch.

Why a mid arm? Because when you actually need to address geometry problems, then solve them. Before that, I am a firm believer that for most people there is more immediate and over-arching benefit from good shocks and sway bars. Both of which can overshadow the minor issues most around here might face from lifted short arm geometry.

In my case, the every day driving and general off road didn't change a whole lot after the Savvy mid arm. And no, there is nothing unstable about it. That is absolute hyperbole. Right now mine can easily do 75mph with two fingers on the wheel for hours on end and has the ability to make hard right turns that squeal the tires with one hand on the wheel. What I notice most often is an overall calmness and predictability in the way mine moves through an obstacle. There are no bad habits with the Savvy mid arm. But where we are and what we do, we are all getting through the same trails.

The three most dramatic changes happened after the mid arm. The rear outboard with a good tune, followed by the Swayloc, and finally the front shocks with an improved retune on all four corners. The Swayloc made street driving nicer. But the shocks did more to transform the Jeep for the better in most scenarios than anything else did. This is why I downplay geometry correction as a point of fixation, because mine has extremely good geometry correction that comes from a winning race team. And despite that pedigree, if I were to do it all over again, I would start with shocks long before any geometry correction.

So what do you keep claiming to have seen?

I can appreciate that you are the the shock and swaybar fixes everything camp but for me shocks and swaybars should be used to tune out what cannot be corrected by other means. All that means is that we a coming at the same problem from different directions nothing else.

 

[Blackjack]

i'm sorry for not keeping up with all the geo correction bracket threads, i do try skim through sometimes.

i think i understand what the thought behind this geo correction kit is, but does this kit change available usable up travel?
and i'm not a fan of lowering the frame end of the LCA either, but if it's a SA behind a wheel (no protruding length forward) it's not a big deal i guess.
i think i saw you need to add some bump? that puts me out right away, not givin up room i just bought (but many others could/might with no ill effects depending on primary use).
as far as correction, i believe the link spread between upper and lower CA's might be helping considerably once wheel size increases.

both do things to fix what the 3"+ SA F's up.

Daves brackets do not change your up travel unless you are currently running less than two inches of bumpstop spacing. The frame side of the lower arm is moved by one inch so there is no loss of clearance.

 

[Blackjack]

When my jeep was new to me (stock non-rubicon unlimited on stock size ko2s), my brother and I took it out to a local recreation area (the kind that suites atvs and utvs with all sorts of dirt roads, hills, and obstacles everywhere going nowhere). We had been there several times before in his lifted xj (on 33s) and there were these steep hills we would always attempt to climb but could never make it up (tires would start spinning out 1/3 of the way). The only vehicles we ever saw make it up these steep, loose hills were long wheelbase razrs. When we took my stock unlimited, we were amazed to find that I could easily drive all the way to the top of these hills with no drama whatsoever. It wasn't even a challenge.
My jeep is now on 33s and savvy short arms with 3-ish inch springs and to make a long story short, I have not made it up those same hills with my new setup. The tires spin easily and the jeep bucks around a bit.
There are much wiser members than me here that can explain what happened in this situation I just shared but my take away is this - factory control arm geometry is desirable for steep climbs.
I purchased a set of Dave's geo correction brackets because they seem very promising with their function of bringing the control arms closer to factory angles in a short arm lifted application (btw I don't care or buy into all the other fluff regarding wheel arc, rear steer, etc.). The problem is they are very tall and after some preliminary measurements it has become clear to me that I won't be able to maintain the 6" of up-travel I worked hard to achieve. For now they are sitting on a shelf and I may shorten them 1 inch and do a modified install without re-drilling the frame side lower control arm mount. Maybe. In the mean time I have to decide if all that work is worth it and if I will ever realistically take my jeep places where control arm geometry really counts.

Why would you not lower the frame side? That can be done to a TJ with a budget boost and provide positive results. For the axle brackets you need two inches of bumpstop or one inch plus one inch of body lift. If you do shorten them you will have to adjust how much you drill the lower axle bracket to maintain correct control arm seperation.

 

[Jorge Bolivar]

Because I have a decent grasp of suspension geometry, even if some here think otherwise.

why pick and off the shelf solution then?

 

[jjvw]

So what do you keep claiming to have seen?

I can appreciate that you are the the shock and swaybar fixes everything camp but for me shocks and swaybars should be used to tune out what cannot be corrected by other means. All that means is that we a coming at the same problem from different directions nothing else.

Yes no maybe. At the moment, you are ending up with short arms with corrected geometry. I wanted and ended up with 12s with 50/50 travel all around which at the end of the day is better served with a longer arm. For as much work as it takes to correct the rear short arm geometry and make a front 3 link and has been suggested here, our preferred mid arm kit could have been installed. The only real difference is cost.

 

[jjvw]

why pick and off the shelf solution then?

What would I do differently? In hindsight I like what the Savvy kit does and have no reason to change it.

 

[Gollywomper]

My mid arm went on almost a year before I did the rear outboard. There were no other changes at that time. Again the differences on pavement were miniscule. I daily drove this setup all around Colorado with about a 3.5" spring lift, the old style OME shocks and an Antirock.

If my Jeep was somehow unusually unstable after, then it was unusually unstable before. Which it wasn't.

I knew after the rear outboard and the tune I happened upon that there was something special there that I needed to continue to pursue. I won't go into the full details, except that I began to recognize the extent that shocks were able to define the ride quality and control the movements of the vehicle. Done well, it is very dramatic. And now that the fronts are done and all four corners have the updated tune that the rears came to me with, all my predictions and expectations have been exceeded.

I have no doubt that the short arm geo correction kit has real and noticable improvements over stock, especially where roll is concerned. But reducing roll is also achievable though shocks (and sway bars) and with them, a broader range of handling improvements that cannot be gained through geometry alone.

I agree it can be reduced through shocks. But for a guy who can weld the price of $160 is cheap for the benefits of a geo.
All things being equal, a Jeep with 2” lift handles a bit better than one with a 4”. The geo would essentially reduce rear geometry angles to those close to a 2” lift? No?

 

[Blackjack]

Yes no maybe. At the moment, you are ending up with short arms with corrected geometry. I wanted and ended up with 12s with 50/50 travel all around which at the end of the day is better served with a longer arm. For as much work as it takes to correct the rear short arm geometry and make a front 3 link and has been suggested here, our preferred mid arm kit could have been installed. The only real difference is cost.

Nothing wrong with where you wanted to go but not everyone wants to do that. If a couple hundred for some brackets and some welding lead to a measurable improvement in on road handling for those that do not want to go down the mid arm and outboard road I am not sure where the harm is? That also being said that IMO if you are getting to the point where you are thinking about cutting the frame brackets off the front then you might as well skip modding the SA rear.

 

[Jorge Bolivar]

What would I do differently?

Your decent grasp of suspension geometry as mentioned on post #228

In hindsight I like what the Savvy kit does and have no reason to change it.

What other kits you use on the past?

 

[Blackjack]

I agree it can be reduced through shocks. But for a guy who can weld the price of $160 is cheap for the benefits of a geo.
All things being equal, a Jeep with 2” lift handles a bit better than one with a 4”. The geo would essentially reduce rear geometry angles to those close to a 2” lift? No?

That is the basic idea. The rear suspension on a TJ has more to do with the ride and handling than the front. This is true for most short wheelbase vehicles since the rear axle encounters whatever the front axle did often times sooner than the front can settle (the infamous slamming of the rear axle if you drive over speed bumps fast). The rear also has a tendency to push the front around especially as the instant center moves rearward when the arm angles are increased.

 

[HornedToad]

Why would you not lower the frame side? That can be done to a TJ with a budget boost and provide positive results. For the axle brackets you need two inches of bumpstop or one inch plus one inch of body lift. If you do shorten them you will have to adjust how much you drill the lower axle bracket to maintain correct control arm seperation.

Based on my measurements, these geo correction brackets raise the axle side upper mounts by 2 5/8 which makes sense given that the instructions for the lowers are to raise the axle side lower holes by 1 5/8 and lower the frame side holes by 1 inch. Therefore if the brackets are shortened by 1 inch then all you need to do for the lowers is redrill the axle side and forgo redrilling the frame side lower mount. I have already worked out 6 inches of uptravel in preparation for outboarding and 12" tuned fox 2.0's (which is a much much higher priority for me) and these geo correction brackets at their full height would foil my ability to maintain 6 inches up.

 

[Blackjack]

Based on my measurements, these geo correction brackets raise the axle side upper mounts by 2 5/8 which makes sense given that the instructions for the lowers are to raise the axle side lower holes by 1 5/8 and lower the frame side holes by 1 inch. Therefore if the brackets are shortened by 1 inch then all you need to do for the lowers is redrill the axle side and forgo redrilling the frame side lower mount. I have already worked out 6 inches of uptravel in preparation for outboarding and 12" tuned fox 2.0's (which is a much much higher priority for me) and these geo correction brackets at their full height would foil my ability to maintain 6 inches up.

The math does not add up that way. You will be taking away too much axle link separation which ideally should be 25% of your tires diameter (ie for a 35 is 8.75 inches). If you are going to reduce the upper on the axle side by and inch I would only raise the lower on the axle side by one inch. With raising the axle side lower closer to the axle centerline you need to maximize your link separation to keep the increase in upper link loading under control.