Rough ride

[Apparition]

Put the money aside for a second .. once you go there, it becomes me vs you, and the focus goes elsewhere. We are adults and we should be able to talk like adults instead of "What about you and me in the playground after 6? Are you man enough?"

Damn, I thought the trend in the Motobilt thread was starting to become common. Now what am I to do with all this extra popcorn?

 

[psrivats]

Damn, I thought the trend in the Motobilt thread was starting to become common. Now what am I to do with all this extra popcorn?

This seems tasty.

I can also give you a popcorn/berry crumble recipe You can always open a movie theater too - sell popcorn and fund your mega build.

 

[Apparition]

This seems tasty.

View attachment 370085

I can also give you a popcorn/berry crumble recipe You can always open a movie theater too - sell popcorn and fund your mega build.

Whirly pop and flavacol is where it's at.

 

[Huckster]

You’re asking for an OME spring that is the equivalent of 1” lift over stock (8”). It’s impossible for any of us to know because lift height is dependent on sprung weight of your rig. The manufacturers advertised lift is just an estimate. A spring advertised as 2” May give 1.5” on a heavier rig or 3” on a lighter rig. That’s why I suggested a spacer. It eliminates the guesswork.

For springs that advertise 1” over stock 8” (2” over your current 7”) you might go back to the spring resources page and look at spring specs.

EDIT: for the rear you might look at H&R 52107, but I don’t know the spring rate relative to stock. The front is hard to compare for the same reason. You can only ask others with those springs what they got, but it still won’t tell you what you’ll get. Thus the need for spacers.

I have been looking at spring resources. Thanks

 

[DirkDPG]

Put the money aside for a second .. once you go there, it becomes me vs you, and the focus goes elsewhere. We are adults and we should be able to talk like adults instead of "What about you and me in the playground after 6? Are you man enough?" And FYI, you can add couple more (or how many ever) zeros to your $1000 and and my stance would still be the same.

Explain to me what is physically happening when you do what you wrote above and why you think the ride quality changes. Talk about damping, talk about sprung mass, talk about vehicular dynamics and explain the "why" of it with your understanding. Note that I am not a 16 year old kid with a lifted Jeep, I am well educated and I understand math and physics very well. If you prefer not to (or can not) explain, that is fine .. we will agree to disagree and move on.

Also - I am not being disingenuous in any way or form. Shocks are the ONLY thing that matter when it comes to perceived ride quality. One cannot tune ride quality with springs. Call up anyone you know that tunes coilovers and ask them if they care about the spring rates in the setup. They won't. The only function springs have is to set the correct/desired ride height for vehicle. The ride quality is all determined by the shock tune. You are welcome to vehemently disagree.

Pesky thing about physics. There are LAWS associated with the field and we don't get to apply them to a precept we believe in and ignore them in others.
The laws of physics apply across the board.

The proof is in the pudding. It is simple. It is completely provable. Sadly, I have received e-mails from several people on this forum who have had the same experience with swapping OME coils on their own jeeps and saw a very noticeable difference in ride quality. They have posted about this in the past and were torn to shreds for stating what they plainly experienced or more recently they refuse to post their own results for fear of what will happen if they do.
I find that sad indeed on a forum where people are seeking honest answers.

I have never disputed shock tuning as a means of improving ride quality. That would be a stupid position to take.
Why do you think shock tuners do what they do? Why would a shock tune change ride quality? The answer is that changing valving in a shock changes resistance and response. If you increase the compression valving in a shock, you are creating more resistance against the inertia that is compressing it, which will firm up the ride. If you decrease the compression valving, the ride will be softer. Valving on extension affects ride quality as well, but that's another thing.
The point is you are adding or removing resistance that dampens suspension movement and that resistance affects ride quality.

OF COURSE the tuners aren't concerned about spring rate!!! They are adding or removing resistance as desired by the customer to optimize ride (or handling, etc) based on whatever that application already has. AGAIN, no one is disputing that shock tuning makes a big difference in ride quality! I don't know why that continues to be an accusation against my point, which is purely based on coil springs.

My point is that shock tuning as a ride quality improver does not disqualify the validity that coil rates make a big difference in ride quality as well.
Lighter compression valving in a shock will produce a softer ride.
lighter rate in a coil spring can do exactly the same.

I understand where the confusion is coming from. A highly respected member of this forum tried multiple coils from different manufacturers and came up with his own conclusions. I don't dispute those findings at all and certainly don't believe any deception or malice was involved, but because of his status, few (if any) questioned his findings. Multiple people have tried to speak to this issue over the years and all tend to get shot down in flames.

The problem comes when we take a conclusion based on a limited section of a field of products and apply those findings across the board to ALL of the products in the industry. The research to make such an assumption is quite obviously incomplete. You cannot make blanket assertions about an entire field of products until you have tested all of the products within that field.

These findings fly in the face of many coil spring engineers and manufacturers who have long known better. People have brought examples of spring rates vs ride quality on jeeps, dirt bikes, trucks with leaf springs, etc, and they are always shouted down for their efforts. Spring rates do matter and they do affect ride quality.

Our man made the statement that there's only a 20% difference between spring rates in the industry anyway. I'm sorry sir, but that is also incorrect.

I can most definitely prove my point and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. The results will not be inconclusive, but crystal clear.
We can keep jumping down rabbit holes of preconceived ideas on paper, or we can get down to it and see who's right.

 

[DirkDPG]

you must have missed the point in my response then. already tried your experiment and it failed. i'll send you an invoice for the $1000.

i'm curious about this though:



why even switch the stock spring then? might as well just add a 3" spacer no?

Maybe you can tell me why you "tried my experiment" and it failed when I've been doing if for over 2 decades? We can both be wrong, but we can't both be right.

3" spacer on stock springs? No. If you've been around forums any length of time, you know why this is. Put a 2" budget boost spacer on stock coils and then run a 2" OME coil and see for yourself. Rates will be similar. Ride will be different. It's one of the reasons why people don't like budget boosts.

 

[jjvw]

Pesky thing about physics. There are LAWS associated with the field and we don't get to apply them to a precept we believe in and ignore them in others.
The laws of physics apply across the board.

The proof is in the pudding. It is simple. It is completely provable. Sadly, I have received e-mails from several people on this forum who have had the same experience with swapping OME coils on their own jeeps and saw a very noticeable difference in ride quality. They have posted about this in the past and were torn to shreds for stating what they plainly experienced or more recently they refuse to post their own results for fear of what will happen if they do.
I find that sad indeed on a forum where people are seeking honest answers.

I have never disputed shock tuning as a means of improving ride quality. That would be a stupid position to take.
Why do you think shock tuners do what they do? Why would a shock tune change ride quality? The answer is that changing valving in a shock changes resistance and response. If you increase the compression valving in a shock, you are creating more resistance against the inertia that is compressing it, which will firm up the ride. If you decrease the compression valving, the ride will be softer. Valving on extension affects ride quality as well, but that's another thing.
The point is you are adding or removing resistance that dampens suspension movement and that resistance affects ride quality.

OF COURSE the tuners aren't concerned about spring rate!!! They are adding or removing resistance as desired by the customer to optimize ride (or handling, etc) based on whatever that application already has. AGAIN, no one is disputing that shock tuning makes a big difference in ride quality! I don't know why that continues to be an accusation against my point, which is purely based on coil springs.

My point is that shock tuning as a ride quality improver does not disqualify the validity that coil rates make a big difference in ride quality as well.
Lighter compression valving in a shock will produce a softer ride.
lighter rate in a coil spring can do exactly the same.

I understand where the confusion is coming from. A highly respected member of this forum tried multiple coils from different manufacturers and came up with his own conclusions. I don't dispute those findings at all and certainly don't believe any deception or malice was involved, but because of his status, few (if any) questioned his findings. Multiple people have tried to speak to this issue over the years and all tend to get shot down in flames.

The problem comes when we take a conclusion based on a limited section of a field of products and apply those findings across the board to ALL of the products in the industry. The research to make such an assumption is quite obviously incomplete. You cannot make blanket assertions about an entire field of products until you have tested all of the products within that field.

These findings fly in the face of many coil spring engineers and manufacturers who have long known better. People have brought examples of spring rates vs ride quality on jeeps, dirt bikes, trucks with leaf springs, etc, and they are always shouted down for their efforts. Spring rates do matter and they do affect ride quality.

Our man made the statement that there's only a 20% difference between spring rates in the industry anyway. I'm sorry sir, but that is also incorrect.

I can most definitely prove my point and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. The results will not be inconclusive, but crystal clear.
We can keep jumping down rabbit holes of preconceived ideas on paper, or we can get down to it and see who's right.

You should take Blaine up on his offer. But you won't do that.

 

[psrivats]

Pesky thing about physics. There are LAWS associated with the field and we don't get to apply them to a precept we believe in and ignore them in others.
The laws of physics apply across the board.

The proof is in the pudding. It is simple. It is completely provable. Sadly, I have received e-mails from several people on this forum who have had the same experience with swapping OME coils on their own jeeps and saw a very noticeable difference in ride quality. They have posted about this in the past and were torn to shreds for stating what they plainly experienced or more recently they refuse to post their own results for fear of what will happen if they do.
I find that sad indeed on a forum where people are seeking honest answers.

I have never disputed shock tuning as a means of improving ride quality. That would be a stupid position to take.
Why do you think shock tuners do what they do? Why would a shock tune change ride quality? The answer is that changing valving in a shock changes resistance and response. If you increase the compression valving in a shock, you are creating more resistance against the inertia that is compressing it, which will firm up the ride. If you decrease the compression valving, the ride will be softer. Valving on extension affects ride quality as well, but that's another thing.
The point is you are adding or removing resistance that dampens suspension movement and that resistance affects ride quality.

OF COURSE the tuners aren't concerned about spring rate!!! They are adding or removing resistance as desired by the customer to optimize ride (or handling, etc) based on whatever that application already has. AGAIN, no one is disputing that shock tuning makes a big difference in ride quality! I don't know why that continues to be an accusation against my point, which is purely based on coil springs.

My point is that shock tuning as a ride quality improver does not disqualify the validity that coil rates make a big difference in ride quality as well.
Lighter compression valving in a shock will produce a softer ride.
lighter rate in a coil spring can do exactly the same.

I understand where the confusion is coming from. A highly respected member of this forum tried multiple coils from different manufacturers and came up with his own conclusions. I don't dispute those findings at all and certainly don't believe any deception or malice was involved, but because of his status, few (if any) questioned his findings. Multiple people have tried to speak to this issue over the years and all tend to get shot down in flames.

The problem comes when we take a conclusion based on a limited section of a field of products and apply those findings across the board to ALL of the products in the industry. The research to make such an assumption is quite obviously incomplete. You cannot make blanket assertions about an entire field of products until you have tested all of the products within that field.

These findings fly in the face of many coil spring engineers and manufacturers who have long known better. People have brought examples of spring rates vs ride quality on jeeps, dirt bikes, trucks with leaf springs, etc, and they are always shouted down for their efforts. Spring rates do matter and they do affect ride quality.

Our man made the statement that there's only a 20% difference between spring rates in the industry anyway. I'm sorry sir, but that is also incorrect.

I can most definitely prove my point and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. The results will not be inconclusive, but crystal clear.
We can keep jumping down rabbit holes of preconceived ideas on paper, or we can get down to it and see who's right.

You do you. Good luck.

 

[DirkDPG]

You should take Blaine up on his offer. But you won't do that.

Why do you keep reposting questions that have been answered and making accusations that are completely unfounded?

Pay close attention. Are you referring to this quote from Mr. Blaine:

What would it take to convince you or anyone else as to why we say "springs don't matter"?
We'll take the most difficult rig that folks consider to make ride well and start with it.
4"ish lifted TJ on short arms with no top, tire on the tailgate, 35's on 17" rims, we'll even use Johnny Joints in the arms since they ride like shit.

That's the rig, what has to happen in the form of any test you can think of that doesn't involve replacing the springs to prove to you that they don't matter? Or, I'll set it up to ride nicely, you bring me any TJ 4" set of springs that doesn't alter the ride height more than 1/2" and we can see if you can tell the difference in spring. Would that do it or you have an idea for some other test to put this shit to bed once and for all? What will it take?

Is that the one? Yes or no? His final question is "What would it take?"

I have SPECIFICALLY posted my response as to what it will take. Blaine's comments are regarding 4" coils on a TJ as his basis for the conclusion that NO coil spring rate difference has anything to do with ride quality.
Since I have been installing, testing and driving Old Man Emu lifted jeeps for 2 decades, I must completely disagree- not with his experiences with certain 4" coils, but how those experiences do not apply to the OME family of coils. Folks here can say that it's all the same. It is not. What it will take is for whoever disagrees to get together, break out the video cameras and see. We can keep tossing out opinions or we can find out once and for all.

Or, you can keep on jumping down the rabbit holes... which will get us nowhere.

 

[DirkDPG]

Old Man Emu has been making high quality suspensions for many years for Jeeps, Toyota's, Nissans, and other vehicles. They offer a variety of spring rates to suit a variety of needs regarding weight, ride quality, handling and performance. These folks know what they are doing, as do many other suspension design engineers and manufacturers all over the world. After all these years, are we now to believe that a few guys on this forum have figured out that they have been wasting their time all along? Are we to now believe that thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people worldwide who have used various spring rates as their builds progressed and understand the value of this have ALL been wrong based on a limited amount of testing with 4" TJ coils by a few people?

Are we to contact all the best and brightest in the suspension design world and let them know they and multitudes worldwide have ALL been wrong because a few dudes on a jeep forum disagree?

My goodness...

 

[jjvw]

Old Man Emu has been making high quality suspensions for many years for Jeeps, Toyota's, Nissans, and other vehicles. They offer a variety of spring rates to suit a variety of needs regarding weight, ride quality, handling and performance. These folks know what they are doing, as do many other suspension design engineers and manufacturers all over the world. After all these years, are we now to believe that a few guys on this forum have figured out that they have been wasting their time all along? Are we to now believe that thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people worldwide who have used various spring rates as their builds progressed and understand the value of this have ALL been wrong based on a limited amount of testing with 4" TJ coils by a few people?

Are we to contact all the best and brightest in the suspension design world and let them know they and multitudes worldwide have ALL been wrong because a few dudes on a jeep forum disagree?

My goodness...

You should explain how to select an aftermarket coil spring for the purposes of affecting the ride quality on our Jeeps with no other changes. Can you do that?

 

[Ocho]

Maybe you can tell me why you "tried my experiment" and it failed when I've been doing if for over 2 decades? We can both be wrong, but we can't both be right.

I can most definitely prove my point and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. The results will not be inconclusive, but crystal clear.
We can keep jumping down rabbit holes of preconceived ideas on paper, or we can get down to it and see who's right.

lol bless your heart.. i can tell you exactly why your experiment failed: in my case, there was no perceived change in ride quality after trying two different spring-rated OME coils that were both dialed in for perfect shock bias, only changing springs and spacers. that means your experiment failed since i should have felt a "big" difference in ride quality.

you've said that you'd put your money where your mouth is more than once, yet your answer to a failed experiment is that you've been doing it for over 2 decades so it can't possibly have failed.. what a fuckin joke. you shouldn't make a bet and then stomp around like a 6 year old when you lose.. stop with the bullshit betting if you aren't going to follow through, it's not a good look.

i guess at the end of it, in your eyes i'm not respected enough on a jeep forum for my experience to qualify lol. you don't know shit about me but i've learned enough about you to let you go back to your pack and play and finger paints.

it's really too bad you are so sensitive about this topic.. it could have been a great discussion if you were willing or able to provide facts that have been requested yet glossed over. rather than answer questions about coils, you wrote about shocks!

your dumb bet, misplaced ego and poor reading comprehension are what derailed this entire discussion..

i'm with sri. you do you and good luck

 

[jjvw]

lol bless your heart.. i can tell you exactly why your experiment failed: in my case, there was no perceived change in ride quality after trying two different spring-rated OME coils that were both dialed in for perfect shock bias, only changing springs and spacers. that means your experiment failed since i should have felt a "big" difference in ride quality.

you've said that you'd put your money where your mouth is more than once, yet your answer to a failed experiment is that you've been doing it for over 2 decades so it can't possibly have failed.. what a fuckin joke. you shouldn't make a bet and then stomp around like a 6 year old when you lose.. stop with the bullshit betting if you aren't going to follow through, it's not a good look.

i guess at the end of it, in your eyes i'm not respected enough on a jeep forum for my experience to qualify lol. you don't know shit about me but i've learned enough about you to let you go back to your pack and play and finger paints.

it's really too bad you are so sensitive about this topic.. it could have been a great discussion if you were willing or able to provide facts that have been requested yet glossed over. rather than answer questions about coils, you wrote about shocks!

your dumb bet, misplaced ego and poor reading comprehension are what derailed this entire discussion..

i'm with sri. you do you and good luck

This debate has been going on for years. So far, no one from the spring tuner church has ever provided an explaination of how to select a spring to tune the ride quality on our Jeeps. We are supposed to have faith that it is real, though...

 

[psrivats]

This debate has been going on for years. So far, no one from the spring tuner church has ever provided an explaination of how to select a spring to tune the ride quality on our Jeeps. We are supposed to have faith that it is real, though...

Law abiding OME shocks with magic properties will come and save the day. The other rogue coils have sinned and are not worthy of consideration.

 

[DirkDPG]

You should explain how to select an aftermarket coil spring for the purposes of affecting the ride quality on our Jeeps with no other changes. Can you do that?

I do it every day. When a customer calls me, we discuss the jeep in more detail. If he's looking for a good ride on a bone stock TJ, what I DON'T do is put the "HD" coils in it because some people say that "HD" is what he needs.

The lighter the jeep, the lighter the coil rates. I had a guy that said he'd been riding in a CJ for 20 years and he likes it rough. We went firmer than we needed to achieve that.

Perhaps you should explain how you ask questions that have an obvious answer based on previous replies in a thread, ignore the answer given and re-ask the question again later. Can you do that?

 

[DirkDPG]

lol bless your heart.. i can tell you exactly why your experiment failed: in my case, there was no perceived change in ride quality after trying two different spring-rated OME coils that were both dialed in for perfect shock bias, only changing springs and spacers. that means your experiment failed since i should have felt a "big" difference in ride quality.

you've said that you'd put your money where your mouth is more than once, yet your answer to a failed experiment is that you've been doing it for over 2 decades so it can't possibly have failed.. what a fuckin joke. you shouldn't make a bet and then stomp around like a 6 year old when you lose.. stop with the bullshit betting if you aren't going to follow through, it's not a good look.

i guess at the end of it, in your eyes i'm not respected enough on a jeep forum for my experience to qualify lol. you don't know shit about me but i've learned enough about you to let you go back to your pack and play and finger paints.

it's really too bad you are so sensitive about this topic.. it could have been a great discussion if you were willing or able to provide facts that have been requested yet glossed over. rather than answer questions about coils, you wrote about shocks!

your dumb bet, misplaced ego and poor reading comprehension are what derailed this entire discussion..

i'm with sri. you do you and good luck

FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS... against your $1000.00. All you gotta do is show up and prove me wrong. We can make as big a publicized deal as you like out of it. ONE of us will leave in shame.

How confident are you?

Take the bet or keep runnin' your gums. Up to you.

 

[jjvw]

I do it every day. When a customer calls me, we discuss the jeep in more detail. If he's looking for a good ride on a bone stock TJ, what I DON'T do is put the "HD" coils in it because some people say that "HD" is what he needs.

The lighter the jeep, the lighter the coil rates. I had a guy that said he'd been riding in a CJ for 20 years and he likes it rough. We went firmer than we needed to achieve that.

Perhaps you should explain how you ask questions that have an obvious answer based on previous replies in a thread, ignore the answer given and re-ask the question again later. Can you do that?

But your clients can't tell by feel when the gas tank is empty.

You do know that by increasing the rate and adding ride height on short shocks, you can create a rough ride, right?

 

[DirkDPG]

Law abiding OME shocks with magic properties will come and save the day. The other rogue coils have sinned and are not worthy of consideration.

Here's the funny part. If you can go back far enough on the all-mighty jeep forums, (or remember back then) you will see that some people found the traditional OME shocks too soft and recommended Bilsteins for the best combo of all around ride and handling.

 

[DirkDPG]

But your clients can't tell by feel when the gas tank is empty.

You do know that by increasing the rate and adding ride height on short shocks, you can create a rough ride, right?

You are like a broken record. We've been over this same thing before, but here you go again.

Let me ask you this. Are you smart enough to tell a jeep that rides rough from one that doesn't?
Do you think that other jeep owners are too stupid to know the difference as well?

 

[DirkDPG]

This debate has been going on for years. So far, no one from the spring tuner church has ever provided an explaination of how to select a spring to tune the ride quality on our Jeeps. We are supposed to have faith that it is real, though...

I am truly concerned about you.