School me on mid-arm vs long-arm

kmas0n said:
...because I was looking for it...

... my wife didn't [notice]...
Click to expand...

This is telling.

kmas0n said:
The only reason I mentioned it was than brianj5600, a few pages back, said his rig rode better after changing to matched savvy springs and like normal, everyone dismissed him as an idiot because "spring rate has no effect on ride quality". I offered a possible explanation that maybe, just maybe Savvy springs do actually ride better than a cheap mismatched set of random springs because the engineers that selected the spring rate knew what the fuck they were doing.
Click to expand...

It is difficult to switch springs and not also change the ride height. It also quite difficult to see changes in ride height without measuring. How much of a ride height change is there when you fill the gas tank up?

Let's say the ride doesn't change. How much difference in rate is required before your wife who isn't looking for changes notices a difference?
 
kmas0n said:
lol, I just imagined JJVW having an "ah ha!" moment
Click to expand...

Several years ago, before I got into shocks, I played the spring and spacer game myself. I thought I had found some pretty interesting differences between springs. Currie and OME, mostly. Then I experienced a change from shocks that was actually dramatic. In comparison, this made the differences in springs so insignificant that in hindsight I don't know if it was real or not. All I know is that if it was real, I had to dig deep to find it.

Point being, I've been there and done that.
 
Last edited:
Mike_H said:
Ok...take me to school. Been reading and researching, but I either haven't gotten this far in, or its much more difficult to find answers to my questions below.

  • what is my wheel size? -> I'm going to build around a 35" tire. Call it 17" rolling radius.
  • how much link separation at the axle do you need -> by the rule of thumb (25% of Diameter). I'm going to go one further...my rolling radius is 17, so my effective diameter is 34. 25% of 34 is 7 inches of separation at the axle.
  • do I change or accept factory brackets -> I'm planning on redrilling lowers and extending uppers
  • recommended angle for LCA to connect to frame -> this is where I start to get foggy...I think its less than 10 degrees...or as flat as possible. I guess I need to rear more. This one isn't as easy to ferret out.
  • how much frame separation is required at the frame-> now I'm completely in the dark. I know there needs to be separation. I also see that it makes a DRAMATIC difference in the AS and IC numbers from the calculator, but I don't know if there is a rule of thumb? I also know from reading that this seperation will affect the force in the arms and axle brackets. How much, and in which direction, I'm still trying to wrap my head around.
  • where can it go on the frame -> I haven't gotten this far yet, because I'm still working on understanding the previous two points.
I know I'm not OP, but I think this discussion can help others...
Click to expand...


i'm no professor of suspension.........wheel size of 35" and low pressure, your ballpark rolling radius is probably like 34.25"ish depending on treads depth

and your right a 1/4 of that for minimum separation. so that gives you a ballpark of about 8.5" for the recommended spread.

brackets......a TJ front axle gives you about 8.25", you could scoot by with that. now the Savvy sys or any other truss based 3/4 link is gonna lift the upper some to place it onto the diff. and there's the rest of the axle separation #.

with axle and chassis at static height...........staring with the bottom link, (which really has no reason to be moved) it should rise out to the frame at 6-10* angle. lower is better. this will effect where it intersects the frame.
from that location you can then locate the upper. the separation you retain will directly effect the characteristics.
is there any reason to change the frame end separation?

this is all oversimplified but you get the picture i hope.
 
mrblaine said:
That's dumb, I would have loaned you a set to copy and ship back.
Click to expand...
if i F'd this all up i just might take you up on that. but i'm in better shape than that crap sys i replaced.

just me i'm to honest for my own good sometimes, i know toximus was sittin on an extra front frame end i was thinkin about asking to purchase too..
 
Captain Phoenix said:
You run a 68 inch tires?
Click to expand...
68" is a heck of a tire...
Farm-Jeep-16.9-34-pro-shot.jpg


Found it here:
https://superiortraction.com/product/set-of-two-r2-paddy-style-tires-13-6-38/
13.6-38-wheelie.jpg
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: pc1p, Daryl and Apparition
jjvw said:
Several years ago, before I got into shocks, I played the spring and spacer game myself. I thought I had found some pretty interesting differences between springs. Currie and OME, mostly. Then I experienced a change from shocks that was actually dramatic. In comparison, this made the differences in springs so insignificant that in hindsight I don't know if it was real or not. All I know is that if it was real, I had to dig deep to find it.

Point being, I've been there and done that.
Click to expand...

jjvw said:
And some thoughts on my springs and spacers after lots of pavement travel a full day of off-road. Adding the spacers to the current OME/Currie combo did very little to change the ride characteristics. Not at all like what I experienced after switching between the softer and stiffer spring rates. Something I noticed on both the street and trail is that the front and rear feel more balanced. With the stiffer OME949s at 216lbs/", I often felt that the rear didn't move a freely as the front 933s at 140lbs. Now with the slightly longer 931s still at 140lbs and the rear Curries at about 185lbs, I feel like both ends are working together more. The front/rear balance feels more even. The ride really does feel noticeably more compliant.

What still frustrates me is that, even though the math agrees with my experience, I am supposed to believe that springs don't effect the ride characteristics.

I don't know what to say except that I will carry on with what I am doing. I will argue that every little bit of consideration adds up into something meaningful. If you are in a position to play with coils, choose the lightest rate that provides the ride height you want. Adjust with spacers without needing to add bump stops extension.
Click to expand...

The part I shaded is similar to my comment earlier. Followed by you apparently trying to dismiss what had just observed.
 
Brianj5600 said:
The part I shaded is similar to my comment earlier. Followed by you apparently trying to dismiss what had just observed.
Click to expand...

I remember. Like I said, in hindsight I had to dig deep to find that difference. It wasn't too long after that I did the outboard with some good shocks. That was a dramatic change that I didn't need to search for. A lot of my thinking changed around that time.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about how much difference in spring rate is required to get an unsuspecting wife to notice.
 
Last edited:
Here's one to think about. Nth Degree was into frequency tuned springs. If I recall they had 4.5" and 6" kits. Yet the only springs they sold were 3" and 4.5". How did they make up the difference?
 
jjvw said:
Several years ago, before I got into shocks, I played the spring and spacer game myself. I thought I had found some pretty interesting differences between springs. Currie and OME, mostly. Then I experienced a change from shocks that was actually dramatic. In comparison, this made the differences in springs so insignificant that in hindsight I don't know if it was real or not. All I know is that if it was real, I had to dig deep to find it.

Point being, I've been there and done that.
Click to expand...

To put shock tuning into perspective, my coilovers had the same springs, preload, and travel available before and after tuning the shocks. Before tuning I would have thrown them away if I was told that's how they ride. After tuning I am trying to seek out the biggest bumps to find the limits of my suspension.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Flair and jjvw
toximus said:
To put shock tuning into perspective, my coilovers had the same springs, preload, and travel available before and after tuning the shocks. Before tuning I would have thrown them away if I was told that's how they ride. After tuning I am trying to seek out the biggest bumps to find the limits of my suspension.
Click to expand...

I suspect you are familiar with the phrase "frequency is for radios".

I don't know where BillaVista is in the echelon of off-road racing, but my understanding is that Wayne from AllTech and now Fox doesn't concern himself too much with frequency tuning. I also know that he is behind a great deal of wins at KOH, despite that.
 
jjvw said:
I suspect you are familiar with the phrase "frequency is for radios".

I don't know where BillaVista is in the echelon of off-road racing, but my understanding is that Wayne from AllTech and now Fox doesn't concern himself too much with frequency tuning. I also know that he is behind a great deal of wins at KOH, despite that.
Click to expand...

He doesn't.
 
toximus said:
He doesn't.
Click to expand...

I should find the Pirate thread from years ago. He's also the guy who after getting frustrated with this very same debate over tuning the ride through springs, says to find the longest lightest spring for the application. The rest is all valving.

Contrast that with what Nth was doing with their short, frequency tuned springs and kits without shocks.
 
Last edited:
jjvw said:
I should find the Pirate thread from years ago. He's also the guy who after getting frustrated with this very same debate over tuning the ride through springs, says to find the longest lightest spring for the application. The rest is all valving.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. My upper and lower springs are set so that there's not much difference between the rates to prevent a harsh transition but we had that conversation and it could be a very light spring paired with a very heavy spring and he could tune that to work but is not how my tuner likes to set them up. We left it that if my Jeep ever changes weight +/-200lbs and I can't get to the ride height I need with adjusting preload we'd talk again about changing springs. That should give you a good indication of how little springs matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: someguysjeep and jjvw
someguysjeep said:
from that location you can then locate the upper. the separation you retain will directly effect the characteristics.
is there any reason to change the frame end separation?

this is all oversimplified but you get the picture i hope.
Click to expand...

Kinda. So assuming I get perfect separation on the rear axle and I locate my rear LCA at a 7'ish degree angle. Are there guidelines for separation at the frame? How much is too much or too little? Build it and drive it? Then see how the performance is or if it breaks?
 
jjvw said:
Here's one to think about. Nth Degree was into frequency tuned springs. If I recall they had 4.5" and 6" kits. Yet the only springs they sold were 3" and 4.5". How did they make up the difference?
Click to expand...
They made the difference up with a rear spring re-location bracket (upper perch) that gained 1.5 inches... In the rear anyway. Nth seemed really focused on the rear of the TJ and not so much in the front.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wildman
jjvw said:
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about how much difference in spring rate is required to get an unsuspecting wife to notice.
Click to expand...

And I'm waiting on you to enlighten us what's wrong with the ballistic fab 4 link mounts. So far all you have given us is savvy needs a body lift.
 
Top Bottom
Back