Suspension setup: mud / snow vs crawling?

[jjvw]

As far as the original question is concerned, you build to solve problems. If a larger tire is desired to get through the terrain, you build to fit that tire. Going along with that, the best guideline that I have come up with is to maintain the factory suspension travels as a minimum. If stuff is dragging or getting in the way, then you move it out of the way. If more traction is required, then you do things to increase traction. If improved stability is needed, then you do things to increase stability.

 

[someguysjeep]

This is all budget dependent of course but the people I know or know of with dedicated rigs for mud, snow, or hill climbing, use a long arm suspension. Now long arms are not good on TJs for rock crawling, but in ultra low traction you need to be able to get over obstacles like logs or rocks buried in the mud/snow. This is easiest with long arms because the axles path of travel has a radius thats so much bigger, its practically moving up and down, where as with short arms, the radius is smaller and the front axle has to move outward towards the front of the vehicle in order to compress upwards. If you not going to be rock crawling, you really dont have to be worried about getting hung up on the longer control arms and a long arm's offroad characteristics would be better suited to your terrain, not to mention how much nicer it rides on the road (for the same reasons: radius)


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step easy or you'll be labeled as a blasphemer and crucified.

not many here see any reason to clean up the travel arc or swing of a SA sys.
if things are kept within a reasonable limit the sys can operate in this state.

jjvw benefits from this formula as well it was just not in the reasoning for him doing it.

 

[John Cooper]

Mud, snow and rocks are 3 different types of wheeling if you ask me.

1. Every mud truck/Jeep I have ever built suspension travel didn't matter. What I wanted tall suspension, tall tires, lots of ground clearance and high horse power.

2. Snow driving I don't have tons of experience with, but all my 4" lifted jeeps with 33 12.5 15 tires have done all I wanted here in the south.

3. Rock crawling, climbing and racing I am going to build whatever @Jerry Bransford or @mrblaine or one of the others that have lived the life recommend. Here in the South East we have rocks but nothing like out west.

 

[jjvw]

step easy or you'll be labeled as a blasphemer and crucified.

not many here see any reason to clean up the sloppy ass swing of a SA sys.
if things are kept within a reasonable limit the sys can operate in this state.

jjvw benefits from this formula as well it was just not in the reasoning for him doing it.

Have you watched the recent videos of @Nickgsjeep's really well behaved short arm?

 

[mrblaine]

step easy or you'll be labeled as a blasphemer and crucified.

not many here see any reason to clean up the sloppy ass swing of a SA sys.
if things are kept within a reasonable limit the sys can operate in this state.

jjvw benefits from this formula as well it was just not in the reasoning for him doing it.

Ya'll can stop doing that shit any time now.

 

[someguysjeep]

Ya'll can stop doing that shit any time now.

my apologies and the post was edited ,

no attempt to start anything......but axle travel arc is not near the top of the list for why many move the links..........thats all.

from what i see most don't give it any worth, thats all.

 

[someguysjeep]

Have you watched the recent videos of @nicksjeep's really well behaved short arm?

no. and i did say the sys can operate like this.

i merely commented on the axle travel theory and like i told the poster, the mere mention brought out the guns........... hence the blasphemy comment is now proven.

 

[mrblaine]

my apologies and the post was edited ,

no attempt to start anything......but axle travel arc is not near the top of the list for why many move the links..........thats all.

from what i see most don't give it any worth, thats all.

Let's agree for the sake of discussion that travel arcs make a meaningful difference to ride quality and should be attended to.

What does the rear suspension do that would benefit from that since the arms are pointed the other direction?

 

[J.Pierce]

I should know better than to even ask this question because there will be no agreement on it, but here it goes............

Wouldn't changing the arc with long arms potentially realize greater benefits on the extreme end of the spectrum more so than at the 4" end of things?

 

[mrblaine]

I should know better than to even ask this question because there will be no agreement on it, but here it goes............

Wouldn't changing the arc with long arms potentially realize greater benefits on the extreme end of the spectrum more so than at the 4" end of things?

Before that question is pondered appropriately, there is a far more important one that needs to be answered first.

How and why did long arms come about? What is the logic and reasoning behind their lengths?

 

[jjvw]

no. and i did say the sys can operate like this.

i merely commented on the axle travel theory and like i told the poster, the mere mention brought out the guns........... hence the blasphemy comment is now proven.

The innocuous phrase sloppy ass swing is what got my attention.

 

[J.Pierce]

Before that question is pondered appropriately, there is a far more important one that needs to be answered first.

How and why did long arms come about? What is the logic and reasoning behind their lengths?

I guess that is essentially my question.

 

[mrblaine]

I guess that is essentially my question.

The genesis of the TJ long arm kits were done by RE as a way to do something other than short arms that the average installer could pull off with a grinder to remove the OEM lower control arm mounts and bolt on a belly skid that carried the attachment points for the upper and lower control arms in the rear and the lowers in the front.

No thought was given to geometry or performance, simply packaging and ease of installation. No one with an eye on performance or geometry puts the frame end of the rear arms that close together. It was done simply so one could get the kit installed.

There is not an inherent improvement in ride quality due to arm length. There is not an inherent increase in articulation due to arm length. Those things are controlled by other factors, not arm length. Shocks control flex, not arm length.

A case can easily be made that an arm longer than stock can more readily take advantage of longer shocks to reduce the arm angle at full extension but again, that angle is controlled by shock travel, not arm length.

 

[someguysjeep]

What does the rear suspension do that would benefit from that since the arms are pointed the other direction?

from a simple layman's perspective. the rear drag sys does not have to come forward to go up which makes it a different situation.

the rear does have to account for rear steer during articulation. at this point the larger arc may become more desirable to lessen effects.

 

[mrblaine]

from a simple layman's perspective. the rear drag sys does not have to come forward to go up which makes it a different situation.

Different as in little to no effect whatsoever?

the rear does have to account for rear steer during articulation. at this point the larger arc may become more desirable to lessen effects.

I dare anyone any where at any time to show me one single situation where rear steer has ever had a detrimental effect on anything.

Rear steer is a fucking buzzword like "bump steer" that most can come up with to sound like they know what they are talking about but rarely do they know what the effects are or why that matters.

Outside of racing hard, bump steer is nothing more than an annoyance. It won't stop you from getting from point A to point B. It won't prevent you from wheeling, hard. It only does one thing, annoy you. Can and should it be prevented? Yes it should but if it isn't, that isn't the end of the world and it certainly won't slow you down.

Same with rear steer. So fucking what?

 

[jjvw]

...

I dare anyone any where at any time to show me one single situation where rear steer has ever had a detrimental effect on anything.

Rear steer is a fucking buzzword like "bump steer" that most can come up with to sound like they know what they are talking about but rarely do they know what the effects are or why that matters.

Outside of racing hard, bump steer is nothing more than an annoyance. It won't stop you from getting from point A to point B. It won't prevent you from wheeling, hard. It only does one thing, annoy you. Can and should it be prevented? Yes it should but if it isn't, that isn't the end of the world and it certainly won't slow you down.

Same with rear steer. So fucking what?

Quite a few here didn't know they had rear steer until they were made aware of its existence.

 

[someguysjeep]

Different as in little to no effect whatsoever?

I dare anyone any where at any time to show me one single situation where rear steer has ever had a detrimental effect on anything.

Rear steer is a fucking buzzword like "bump steer" that most can come up with to sound like they know what they are talking about but rarely do they know what the effects are or why that matters.

Outside of racing hard, bump steer is nothing more than an annoyance. It won't stop you from getting from point A to point B. It won't prevent you from wheeling, hard. It only does one thing, annoy you. Can and should it be prevented? Yes it should but if it isn't, that isn't the end of the world and it certainly won't slow you down.

Same with rear steer. So fucking what?

sorry i'll just dip away. i'm not attempting to kick dust here.

i look at the sys not the piece. if an effort to minimize every controllable undesirable aspect is not correct, i've made more grave errors i fear.

since i wasted my time to build it i figured i might as well try to do the best i could .

 

[UKTJ]

I asked a similar question a while back, you may find a couple of the early responses helpful...


https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/building-for-conditions.45037/page-2#post-769928

 

[Steel City 06]

To plagiarize one of my old posts:
There are two schools of thought for sand, mud, and snow:

1. Punch through to solid ground
2. Ride across the top

Most on-road AWD vehicles follow the first school of thought. Think of an AWD Subaru with it’s narrow tires.

On snow on pavement, they more easily cut through the snow and find the pavement beneath, whereas something like a Jeep with wide tires slides all over the place because it can’t reach the pavement. In shallow snow or mud, the Subaru will keep better traction than a floatation tire equipped vehicle. But if that Subaru encounters very deep mud (or snow) like the below YJ, it will quickly become bogged and stuck.

Mud boggers go to the opposite school of thought. Think of this YJ I posted further up:

Even without the dually it has very wide and large diameter tires. It will never find the bottom of a deep mud pit, but instead, drive across the top. It would also likely perform very well in deep snow or sand. However, it would easily slide all over the place in shallow snow on a road.


That whole thread has some more good discussion on those differences:
https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/has-anyone-installed-duallies-on-their-tj.33417/

 

[imahnu]

@J.Pierce Welcome to the forum! I'd agree with most of what has been said thus far. Mud is my typical terrain and to keep it short I have the OME 2.5" lift with JKS control arms and 1.25" body lift. Part of the reason I went with JKS was the OE type rubber bushing on one end. They are significantly easier to maintain than the double end JJ like some control arms when you get them caked in mud frequently. Like others have said, your suspension travel goal should be the same. Up travel and down travel are still just as important as if you were rock crawling. I can flex my suspension from fool droop to bump-stops quite easily even in my relatively flat and muddy terrain. With my TT the only issues I have getting stuck in mud for the most part is my diff clearance with 33s.

Suspension setup should be the same IMO.
Tummy tucks are completely worth it. The last few times I've been mudding I haven't had nearly as much dragging and it wasn't anymore difficult to clear out IMO.
I do disconnect my front axle as well.
For tires id stick with a skinnier tire in a more aggressive tread that has the most sipes you can find. I think duratracs are a good in-between for you.