Re-gear now, lockers later

[jjvw]

Why so many lockers?

I broke the original rear Rubicon locker. Then I broke the LSD on the replacement rear Rubicon locker. That turned into the ARB that I currently have, going on about 5-6 years. Then I recently replaced the front Rubicon locker with a matching ARB for peace of mind.

 

[jjvw]

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I am trying to picture it in my head - having the same pattern is going to be equivalent to having the same backlash, right?

Yes

 

[Wildman]

I was planning on Eaton E-locker. Seems like the ARB is a pain with the air fittings from my seat?

As gets discussed all the time ARB's mostly are plug & play & don't require anymore maintenance than the E-locker. Route your air lines properly and you're good.

I do currently have a front lunchbox and intend on keeping that up front for now. Someone may give me an LSD for the rear for now (kinda what got me on this train of thought).

If you get the LS for the Dana 35 if it's more than a few years old you might want to rebuild it with new clutch packs.

I am still fuzzy on the difference between a lunchbox and the detroit. The detroit is a full case locker, but is also an automatic. Does it behave the same as a lunchbox?

A Detroit is a full case locker. I ran one in my Dana 35 when I had the 4 cyl. They behave similar to the lunch but if you get the newer Detroit it supposedly doesn't engage/disengage as harsh as the older ones. But they do still pop/bang. My ex-wife hated driving it after I put it in. The reason you don't want a lunch box locker in e Dana 35 is that the stock carrier case will crack.

So there could be a problem if I end up with different backlash then I had the first time it was set up, even if both are "in spec"?

You want it to be the same. The point of checking it is to put the used gears back in how they came out. It isn't hard to do but you need a inch lb dial or beam torque wrench to check it with. I've done it with a beam torque wrench but the dial version is better and they aren't that expensive on Amazon.

I was planning on a super 35 currently. Suppose plans could change, but my impression so far is that the super 35 is "enough" for 35" tires and smaller/lighter than the Dana 44, and the Dana 44 is hardly "enough" for more than 35s anyways.

Dana 44s are not cheap and super 35 kits are, ~350$, it is the super 30 kit that is expensive.

Yep the Super 35 is fine for up to 35" tires and as you said there really isn't any reason for a Dana 44. A complete Super 35 with the locker & axle shafts & parts is about $1300 last time I'd looked. You had the option of Detroit or ARB or E-locker that come in the 30 spline version. There may be other lockers but those were the main 3 when I was looking 5 years ago.

Back when I still had my Dana 35 & before the Super35 kit Warn offered a full floater kit which is what I had. I also had the Superior axle truss that isn't made anymore.

 

[lBasket]

The ARB air lines are a non issue if you are smart enough to route them away from the exhaust and not let them pull tight with suspension travel.

Good to know. I suppose the wiring more or less is the same. Maybe I'll consider an ARB when I get there... the Elockers have gone from ~900 to ~1300 since I started looking at them. The ARB is cheaper now.

While better than nothing, the LSD quits doing anything that moment a tire loses traction.

Interesting, I thought it was kinda the entire point of them to limit that so that you still get some torque at the wheel with traction unlike an open diff?

I know a selectable locker is useful in a lot of scenarios, but there is one specific one in Moab every year where it is painfully obvious my open diff is a problem. Going up an incline, with all the weight on the rear tires on the sticky rock, and one tire still spins. I know a locker would help, I wonder how an LSD would behave in that scenario.

Lunchbox is an automatic locker the same way that the Detroit is. The difference is the size and strength.

Good to know. I'd just go lunchbox at that point but I am not the biggest fan of them, eventually I definitely think I want selectable.

No idea how much wiggle room there is. The idea behind matching the patterns is to keep the wear surface in the same spot where the work hardening has occurred.

Okay I see why you say it that way now. Makes sense.

The S35 is said to be comparable in strength to a factory Dana 44. All I know is that the people involved in its development ran them much harder in places we aren't going without a failure.

Cool, that is good, I have fun in the rocks sometimes but I am no starkey by any means. It'll probably be fine

 

[ColoJeep]

I broke the original rear Rubicon locker. Then I broke the LSD on the replacement rear Rubicon locker. That turned into the ARB that I currently have, going on about 5-6 years. Then I recently replaced the front Rubicon locker with a matching ARB for peace of mind.

Are the Rubicon locker and LDS that fragile if beat on ?

 

[lBasket]

As gets discussed all the time ARB's mostly are plug & play & don't require anymore maintenance than the E-locker. Route your air lines properly and you're good.



If you get the LS for the Dana 35 if it's more than a few years old you might want to rebuild it with new clutch packs.

Good point. Not sure if it is a gear-based trutrac or not.

A Detroit is a full case locker. I ran one in my Dana 35 when I had the 4 cyl. They behave similar to the lunch but if you get the newer Detroit it supposedly doesn't engage/disengage as harsh as the older ones. But they do still pop/bang. My ex-wife hated driving it after I put it in. The reason you don't want a lunch box locker in e Dana 35 is that the stock carrier case will crack.

Okay yep I don't want one of those lol. I don't like my lunchbox. It is nice to have a cheap easy locker, but it's not that fun to drive onroad with it. I don't drive my Jeep in the snow, but that is pretty much the reason why. Salt isn't really an issue out here so I could drive it in the winter if it wasn't ass in mixed snow-pavement.

You want it to be the same. The point of checking it is to put the used gears back in how they came out. It isn't hard to do but you need a inch lb dial or beam torque wrench to check it with. I've done it with a beam torque wrench but the dial version is better and they aren't that expensive on Amazon.

Yeah I will get the chance to buy all these fancy new tools to put the gearset in in the first place anyways. I suppose it will only be easier the second time because I won't touch the pinion.

Yep the Super 35 is fine for up to 35" tires and as you said there really isn't any reason for a Dana 44. A complete Super 35 with the locker & axle shafts & parts is about $1300 last time I'd looked. You had the option of Detroit or ARB or E-locker that come in the 30 spline version. There may be other lockers but those were the main 3 when I was looking 5 years ago.

Back when I still had my Dana 35 & before the Super35 kit Warn offered a full floater kit which is what I had. I also had the Superior axle truss that isn't made anymore.

Can't even get the locker for 1300 anymore:
https://revolutiongear.com/eaton-el...006-jeep-tj-with-30-spline-axles-3-54-and-up/
https://revolutiongear.com/eaton-el...tj-xj-yj-cj-with-30-spline-axles-3-73-and-up/

Doesn't seem like that full float kit exists anymore, nothing coming up but forum posts about it.

 

[jjvw]

Good to know. I suppose the wiring more or less is the same. Maybe I'll consider an ARB when I get there... the Elockers have gone from ~900 to ~1300 since I started looking at them. The ARB is cheaper now.
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I don't have an opinion on one over the other. The problems we see with the air lines are almost always an installer error that didn't need to happen.

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Interesting, I thought it was kinda the entire point of them to limit that so that you still get some torque at the wheel with traction unlike an open diff?
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The LSD is only slightly better than nothing and only does what it does when both tires are making his contact with the ground.

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I know a selectable locker is useful in a lot of scenarios, but there is one specific one in Moab every year where it is painfully obvious my open diff is a problem. Going up an incline, with all the weight on the rear tires on the sticky rock, and one tire still spins. I know a locker would help, I wonder how an LSD would behave in that scenario.

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In my experiences, there is no place where an LSD is good enough to compromise not having two lockers everywhere else. Even in daily driver mode, I never missed the LSD even in the winter.

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Good to know. I'd just go lunchbox at that point but I am not the biggest fan of them, eventually I definitely think I want selectable.

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Cool, that is good, I have fun in the rocks sometimes but I am no starkey by any means. It'll probably be fine

Build to solve the problems you have.

 

[jjvw]

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Doesn't seem like that full float kit exists anymore, nothing coming up but forum posts about it.

The full float kit hasn't been available in a very long time.

 

[jjvw]

Are the Rubicon locker and LDS that fragile if beat on ?

It is a well known quality that they have. The rear is a small locker and a small LSD crammed into that space. The front is also fairly small in the world of full case lockers.

 

[Wildman]

Good point. Not sure if it is a gear-based trutrac or not.

Be cool if it was a TruTrac but the TracLoc which is the stock LS has clutches & they wear out within a few years. I don't know if you can on the TracLoc but in the old D37 you could add extra clutches & make it work almost as good as a locker.

Okay yep I don't want one of those lol. I don't like my lunchbox. It is nice to have a cheap easy locker, but it's not that fun to drive onroad with it. I don't drive my Jeep in the snow, but that is pretty much the reason why. Salt isn't really an issue out here so I could drive it in the winter if it wasn't ass in mixed snow-pavement.

I liked my Detroit in the rear. I have a Locrite in the front and it wasn't bad. I drove mine year round. In the snow & ice going over the pass too.

Yeah I will get the chance to buy all these fancy new tools to put the gearset in in the first place anyways. I suppose it will only be easier the second time because I won't touch the pinion.

New tools are ALWAYS fun. And it's a good skill to learn.

Can't even get the locker for 1300 anymore:
https://revolutiongear.com/eaton-el...006-jeep-tj-with-30-spline-axles-3-54-and-up/
https://revolutiongear.com/eaton-el...tj-xj-yj-cj-with-30-spline-axles-3-73-and-up/


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Doesn't seem like that full float kit exists anymore, nothing coming up but forum posts about it.

Nope Warn stopped selling it about 15 years ago now. And I just about gave it away when I swapped out axles too. .sold it for dirt cheap. The Super35 is better too then the full float. You still had 27 spline axle shafts. It lived on mine with 35" tires but I'd bought it used and the guy I bought it from had broken a axle shaft.

 

[lBasket]

I don't have an opinion on one over the other. The problems we see with the air lines are almost always an installer error that didn't need to happen.



The LSD is only slightly better than nothing and only does what it does when both tires are making his contact with the ground.



In my experiences, there is no place where an LSD is good enough to compromise not having two lockers everywhere else. Even in daily driver mode, I never missed the LSD even in the winter.

I do not disagree with this, but in this current situation it is more like choosing LSD vs. open while saving for a locker. Due to some generosity.

Build to solve the problems you have.

Yep. I am like, the high end of medium intensity, at best. Even if I wanted to go tons and 40s eventually this will be good to learn now.

 

[jjvw]

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Yep. I am like, the high end of medium intensity, at best. Even if I wanted to go tons and 40s eventually this will be good to learn now.

The more you do, the more your perspective will change

 

[lBasket]

Be cool if it was a TruTrac but the TracLoc which is the stock LS has clutches & they wear out within a few years. I don't know if you can on the TracLoc but in the old D37 you could add extra clutches & make it work almost as good as a locker.

I believe it is turning out to be a trutrac, which is nice.

I liked my Detroit in the rear. I have a Locrite in the front and it wasn't bad. I drove mine year round. In the snow & ice going over the pass too.

It is interesting to me how there is always two camps with driving a lunchbox in winter.

I am a total Jerry on the topic, it is unpredictable and makes me nervous. I pucker up everytime I am in 4wd going like 40+ on a curve and there is a car in the oncoming lane.

New tools are ALWAYS fun. And it's a good skill to learn.

I think so. It seems like one of those skills you're gonna need to pick up eventually if you want to really be into offroading.

I will likely remove the axles and bring them "inside". It'll be a lot easier to be patient if I am warm and comfy.

Nope Warn stopped selling it about 15 years ago now. And I just about gave it away when I swapped out axles too. .sold it for dirt cheap. The Super35 is better too then the full float. You still had 27 spline axle shafts. It lived on mine with 35" tires but I'd bought it used and the guy I bought it from had broken a axle shaft.

Dang that is cool. Vintage. It looks like teraflex makes it for a jk 44 now:
https://teraflex.com/jk-dana-44-rea...-conversion-slotted-big-rotors-30-spline.html

Had no idea that was possible until now

 

[lBasket]

The more you do, the more your perspective will change

Haha yeah... I have a feeling not being severely undergeared may make me willing to try alot more than I would have before, too. I still remember being blown away with my jeep when I got it and now I am a bit underwhelmed.

 

[jjvw]

Haha yeah... I have a feeling not being severely undergeared may make me willing to try alot more than I would have before, too. I still remember being blown away with my jeep when I got it and now I am a bit underwhelmed.

Gearing gets ignored far more often than it ought to for overall performance. When regears happen, most do not go deep enough.

Traction through tires and lockers also frequently get dismissed as a basic solid foundation for off-road stuff.

 

[lBasket]

Gearing gets ignored far more often than it ought to for overall performance. When regears happen, most do not go deep enough.

I bet it is easier to ignore in an automatic, off-road at least. I haven't been able to use 5th gear for so long either.

Oh yeah I've been reading about gears alot today and the amount of people that say "I went 4.88 and wish I went deeper"... I'd probably go deeper than 5.13 if I could with the manual, but you can't for my axles.

Traction through tires and lockers also frequently get dismissed as a basic solid foundation for off-road stuff.

To be fair the gears and lockers are also pretty much the most expensive, and least-DIY friendly thing you do in a build. I've known I've needed both for years... Since the second TJ Fest really. But that hasn't helped me get them done.

But yeah, my lunchbox locker was infinitely more useful than having a lift ever was.

 

[Wildman]

I believe it is turning out to be a trutrac, which is nice.

That will be really nice. While the TruTrac is still a LS it's better than a clutch type locker.

It is interesting to me how there is always two camps with driving a lunchbox in winter.

I am a total Jerry on the topic, it is unpredictable and makes me nervous. I pucker up everytime I am in 4wd going like 40+ on a curve and there is a car in the oncoming lane.

IMO once you learn how they react on snow & ice they are very predictable but I was also coming from a Suzuki Samurai with lunch box lockers in both axles. So a 80" WB to a 94" WB was a huge difference in how they handle.

I think so. It seems like one of those skills you're gonna need to pick up eventually if you want to really be into offroading.

It is a very good skill to have. And if you race your MR2 it'll help there too.

I will likely remove the axles and bring them "inside". It'll be a lot easier to be patient if I am warm and comfy.

Lot nicer working on axles out of your rig than under it. I regeared mine in my dirt driveway the first time. I got it done but it wasn't enjoyable. Build yourself a axle stand too.

Dang that is cool. Vintage. It looks like teraflex makes it for a jk 44 now:
https://teraflex.com/jk-dana-44-rea...-conversion-slotted-big-rotors-30-spline.html

Had no idea that was possible until now

There are still people who make them for some axles. Herm the Overdrive Guy makes a kit for the old school Dana 44's in old Jeeps. Have hubs on the rear axle makes it easier to flat tow too.

You're getting there & I haven't even wheeled with you yet but I've watched you progress. Once you have lower gearing I think you'll be shocked at what you & your Jeep can do.

 

[lBasket]

That will be really nice. While the TruTrac is still a LS it's better than a clutch type locker.

Yeah I think it'll be nice. While it might not be a huge difference in rocks it will probably be much nicer in a lot of other terrain.

IMO once you learn how they react on snow & ice they are very predictable but I was also coming from a Suzuki Samurai with lunch box lockers in both axles. So a 80" WB to a 94" WB was a huge difference in how they handle.

Yeah not sure why it makes me so nervous. Maybe I just need more experience with it like you say, but I'm not very motivated to go get it lol.

It is a very good skill to have. And if you race your MR2 it'll help there too.

Is it? I've never looked into that, I saw quaife makes an LSD for my transaxle. It is a similar process to set those up?

Lot nicer working on axles out of your rig than under it. I regeared mine in my dirt driveway the first time. I got it done but it wasn't enjoyable. Build yourself a axle stand too.

That's how I do most things. But I keep seeing patience and organization is important for this... And both of those run extremely thin when I'm losing shit in the rocks a stand is a good idea, I'm going to set up a table and stuff so I can keep my shit together for this one.

There are still people who make them for some axles. Herm the Overdrive Guy makes a kit for the old school Dana 44's in old Jeeps. Have hubs on the rear axle makes it easier to flat tow too.

That's pretty cool. It's cool when there are like small business gear manufacturing type places. Always the kind of thing I thought you'd only see from huge companies

You're getting there & I haven't even wheeled with you yet but I've watched you progress. Once you have lower gearing I think you'll be shocked at what you & your Jeep can do.

I think so too. I think it'll give me a lot more confidence and let me take my mind off the clutch more. It will also let me work on other things since this has more or less held my build up

 

[jjvw]

I bet it is easier to ignore in an automatic, off-road at least. I haven't been able to use 5th gear for so long either.

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To some extent, off-road. Both on and off-road is nicer after the switch from 488 to 538.

 

[lBasket]

To some extent, off-road. Both on and off-road is nicer after the switch from 488 to 538.

Sometimes I wonder how drastic it could really feel to go 1, 2 gear steps when I see people debating it. I know for me it will be a huge difference. But sounds like it was very noticeable to you too.