98 TJ bump steer diagnosis

[Jerry Bransford]

I'm done wasting any more time trying to explain how extremely unlikely it is the L-R caster angles are now inexplicably exactly the same. You think something somehow bent precisely enough to cause that. Exactly the same now instead of the correct .4-.5 degree angle difference? Really?

I personally don't believe they are or even realistically could be exactly the same on a stock front axle as the printout is indicating. They certainly should not be the same.

Believe whatever you want, I'm done here.

 

[ohiopatriot]

Why are you mad at me. I just said how the machine works. You wanted to debate about the caster, sorry. But since "really?" Is all you've got maybe it's best your done.

These seem to fit and appear adjustable for caster and camber.

They do make them in 3 or 4 ranges of adjustment

But then again to get it EXACTLY the same would be tough to do.

Believe whatever you want

You have given nothing, so what should I believe? I have my theories and your "Really" and "are you serious" to go on.

I personally don't believe they are or even realistically could be exactly the same on a stock front axle as the printout is indicating.

Yep, that's what we are talking about, as you pointed out. But we do know you can't manipulate the machine. Yet your answer is just nope, can't be.

They certainly should not be the same.

We agree, as stated in my first post.

Funny how people get mad after being pissy at somebody's elses post.

You remind me of another Guru :worship2:

 

[Xposure]

So to get back on track I have a question....has this always been a issue as long as you’ve owned the Jeep or did it start after you changed something?

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

Ahem, cough cough, um booollllshit. Ball joints don't need to be "broken in".

that was my thought. never have i ever heard of this in my life. what i cant for the life of me figure out is why they arent trying to upsell or further diagnose the jeep when they claim that the shop foreman almost lost control at 40mph after the aignment.....

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

So to get back on track I have a question....has this always been a issue as long as you’ve owned the Jeep or did it start after you changed something?

happened immediately after replacing ball joints and u joints. never had an issue before. had 2 members of jeep club look at the rig and 1 mester tech and now 4wheel parts

 

[Xposure]

happened immediately after replacing ball joints and u joints. never had an issue before. had 2 members of jeep club look at the rig and 1 mester tech and now 4wheel parts

Did you replace them yourself or did a shop do it? Is it possible that something could be not tightened down enough? Or that when pushing out or in a ball joint that something got bent or a ball joint inserted cockeyed?

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

Did you replace them yourself or did a shop do it? Is it possible that something could be not tightened down enough? Or that when pushing out or in a ball joint that something got bent or a ball joint inserted cockeyed?

i had a shop do the work since i didnt have access to the 4x4 adapter sleeve needed to push out the b joints. that was my first reaction after driving the jeep upon getting it back. checked over all joints and they all seem to be straight and i checked torque on all nuts. couldnt find anything

 

[Xposure]

i know this sounds trivial and unlikely but it’s obviously something that’s unluckily....is it possible a wheel has loose lug nuts that are only hand tight or not pressed up against the rotor correctly or that the rotor was coceyed when the wheel was mounted and as speed increases it starts slightly moving around?

 

[Mike_H]

What ball joints were used? Do you have a copy of the invoice that states part numbers and brand? That might tell us something.

I'm with @ohiopatriot here, if his description of how the machine works is correct. Something controlling the top of the knuckle is out of whack. Either the c is bent, or a ball joint is misaligned. If what Jerry is saying is also correct, its like someone who doesn't know better set it up to be equal.

 

[ohiopatriot]

As to being back on track, with the adjustable control arms you can get more caster dialed in and see if it's more controllable then. The lack of 1/2 degree or so side to side is really a nonissue but may cause a slight drift due to road crown, but should it should be stable.

If I'm wrong maybe someone will correct me, I'm not a certified Jeep Guru and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

What ball joints were used? Do you have a copy of the invoice that states part numbers and brand? That might tell us something.

I'm with @ohiopatriot here, if his description of how the machine works is correct. Something controlling the top of the knuckle is out of whack. Either the c is bent, or a ball joint is misaligned. If what Jerry is saying is also correct, its like someone who doesn't know better set it up to be equal.

i do have the receipts with the part numbers but it is in the glove box. i do remember that they are moog ball joints tho. can get that info when i pick up jeep

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

i know this sounds trivial and unlikely but it’s obviously something that’s unluckily....is it possible a wheel has loose lug nuts that are only hand tight or not pressed up against the rotor correctly or that the rotor was coceyed when the wheel was mounted and as speed increases it starts slightly moving around?

thats a great question also, i have taken off the front wheels twice to investigate since the issue started and the issue has persisted. if i am unlucky enough to make the mistake multiple times i might as well yard sale the toolbox lol. certainly worth having 4wheel parts look at to confirm tho!

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

As to being back on track, with the adjustable control arms you can get more caster dialed in and see if it's more controllable then. The lack of 1/2 degree or so side to side is really a nonissue but may cause a slight drift due to road crown, but should it should be stable.

If I'm wrong maybe someone will correct me, I'm not a certified Jeep Guru and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

so i am assuming that you are agreeing that caster should be between 5.5 and 6 for starters? that will be my first issue to tackle with the alignment shop when i speak to them tomaro. now the trick is getting them to correctly set that without them wanting to charge me for "additional labor" even tho it wasnt set correctly the first time

 

[Xposure]

Maybe a guru can comment on this....if someone pressing out the ball joints where castor bolts are, if they were to mix them up and put them on the other side could that make a significant difference? I suppose if they don’t have much adjustment then it couldn’t make much difference?

You know, when I got my Jeep all the front end had been replaced and it didn’t feel quite right too me, it had slack and just felt weird....well come to find out whoever installed everything didn’t torque things down tight, they just got nuts passed the carter pins then pinned them. Once I pulled the pins out and tightened them on down the whole steering tightened up and felt great. Then I also adjusted the little bit of slack in the steering box and all was good. All that stuff is supposed to be tight, the carter pins are just backup safety...someone apparently didn’t understand the concept. Lol

If I were you I’d put a socket on every single bolt in the front end and make sure it’s tightened down good. It may feel tight by hand but you put a wrench on it and you get a couple turns to snug it up....that’s how mine was. That’s probably where I’d start. It seems like the issue is with either the ball joints or the labor.

 

[ohiopatriot]

so i am assuming that you are agreeing that caster should be between 5.5 and 6 for starters? that will be my first issue to tackle with the alignment shop when i speak to them tomaro. now the trick is getting them to correctly set that without them wanting to charge me for "additional labor" even tho it wasnt set correctly the first time

Yes, if they are able to get it to 6 and it should drive well and not wander, if not it's not your alignment.

Yeah with your adjustable control arms they should have set it, especially if you paid that kind of money they should have already done it, so yes they should do it for no additional cost. If not express your concerns in the showroom, loudly If necessary.

 

[ohiopatriot]

Maybe a guru can comment on this....if someone pressing out the ball joints where castor bolts are, if they were to mix them up and put them on the other side could that make a significant difference?

Definiatly Not a guru, some may say not even entitled to an opinion, but the caster bolts I believe you are referring to are in the control arms.

 

[Xposure]

Definiatly Not a guru, some may say not even entitled to an opinion, but the caster bolts I believe you are referring to are in the control arms.

Yes the ones in the LCA on the wheel side....he had all of his ball joints replaced and that is what started all of this so it seems to be likely that something was messed up during that job. I was wondering if the castor bolts were mixed up if it could make a difference....but I suppose not more than 1.5 degrees, right?

As for opinions....well no one has solved it or said they know the problem so I suppose some dart throwing of ideas is in order. But hey, that’s just an opinion lol

 

[Xposure]

Yes, if they are able to get it to 6 and it should drive well and not wander, if not it's not your alignment.

Yeah with your adjustable control arms they should have set it, especially if you paid that kind of money they should have already done it, so yes they should do it for no additional cost. If not express your concerns in the showroom, loudly If necessary.

It read like when he picked up his car from alignment they said it’s still not road worthy but we don’t even want to make a suggestion of what to do about it....sounds like they were trying to wipe their hands clean of it to me and didn’t want to mess with it. Which is weird because he said it was a 4x4 shop! Hopefully they will do the right thing and make the adjustments.

 

[Xposure]

So I’ve been thinking about this....when all this started happening his Jeep had non adjustable control arms and all they did was replace all of his ball joints causing his steering to go bad. How could they have changed his castor by changing the ball joints on non adjusting parts? Doesn’t it really just mean that a ball joint has to be bad, something loose, or something bend (less unlikely) but whatever it is just isn’t noticeable until he gets up to speed?

It just seems like his castor/steering shouldn’t be off from a ball joint job on non adjustable parts unless something is messed up with that job....either a bad joint that was maybe pressed in wrong or what is more likely in my mind is that something is somewhat tight but not tight enough so at speed it’s shifting.

 

[AZ2CO98tj]

Yes, if they are able to get it to 6 and it should drive well and not wander, if not it's not your alignment.

Yeah with your adjustable control arms they should have set it, especially if you paid that kind of money they should have already done it, so yes they should do it for no additional cost. If not express your concerns in the showroom, loudly If necessary.

awesome thanks i will have 4wheel parts set everything correctly and go from there and report back