Anyone use headers on their TJ?

[tquig01]

I recently rented a car without a column shifter and without a keyed ignition.....i much prefer yesteryear technology

My wife's car (Lincoln MKZ) is like that- push button gear selector, push button start and an electric parking brake that makes it a royal PITA to change the brakes. People ask why I have an old Jeep- because I can work on it!

 

[fljeeper]

No hijacking the tread, more info no matter which way it leads, is a benefit to all. Now, on that note, tquig01, is ther a benefit for the rust factor. Now, after i installed, the ss lines an hoses, the pedal is no sponge an feels like it will thru you thru the windshield. But, the lines taken off looked to be factory an with 180000 or so on them, i am sure they were easily expanded, an whether it was ss or stock lines, it was going to improve the spongy.
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/s...opping-with-stainless-braided-ss-brake-lines/
https://www.americanmuscle.com/rubber-vs-stainless-steel-brake-lines.html
http://www.mytractorforum.com/112-trucks/64808-i-need-brake-line-gas-line-wont-rust-winter-f350.html
http://sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-doesnt-stainless-stee/
https://sharpologist.com/2016/06/stainless-steel-vs-rust.html - this debate spans far an wide

Would it be possible that the reason your brakes feel firm now that you installed the SS hoses is because you replaced old aerated fluid and bled the system?

 

[weldedcambolt]

Ya, theres no doubt, it feels better for those reasons, not arguing that. But, on all the cars i have replaced the lines an bled the brakes, this one i did with the stainlesss, does feel, good. An, i didnt put them on for that reason. Did it to see, if the lines will last longer. an i still cant find any tests on stainless brake lines an corrosion against steel. An the other thing i was reading about you cant tell when the stainles hoses will go bad. let me tell ya, I cant tell when the rubber ones will go bad. now, I have never had a rubber hose brake, with all the cars i have ever driven. its been the metal lines that have broke, going down the street. I am an expert on having break lines break going down the road an being able to control the vehicle never had the need, but, i aint scard to have a break line brake, jump out the car, an roll it into a tree if needed, to prevent from hitting someone I always wanted to be a stunt man....but if stainless will help with the rust factor, an prevent them lines from going back with me or how ever will own the vehicle in the future. if i got the cash. an now i got the extreme brake line tool, to make the double flares....i am going that way as an experiment. at least the stainless lines an rubber hoses.

 

[mrblaine]

There is no actual debate. Confusion and repetition of myth maybe, but the test shows both to expand the same amount under the same pressure so the premise is flawed. If the question were to be correct, it would be if I put viable OEM hoses on versus new SS, will I notice a difference and the answer is no.

To help put this in a more acceptable perspective, go look up 10 psi residual pressure valves and see what the folks that sell them have to say as to why you should own them. Further, this is similar to swapping to rear discs and folks reporting an improvement. Only happens if there stock drums were neglected and not working properly.

If I had a choice, all of the lines we use would be custom length OEM style. We don't have those commonly available so we use SS but only for convenience.

I asked the question and no one bit. Here is why you really need to know what you are buying and why before you plop your money down after reading the marketing bullshit foisted upon the ignorant.

Residual Valve
Residual valves are used to maintain constant pressure on the brake system. For drum brakes, a 10 lb. residual valve is used to hold pressure against the springs in the drum. This allows the drum brake to engage more quickly and reduces pedal travel.

Another one-
Drum brakes require a 10 lb. residual pressure (RPV10) to counteract the spring tension in the drum system which tends to pull the shoes away from the drums.

Those two are common of 100's of texts with similar verbiage.

Here is the problem. Our drum brakes and in fact like most drum brakes in use on autos in the last 50ish years are of the servo self applying type of drum brake. The brake shoe springs have a very high force because it is needed to pull the shoes away from the drum surface and return them to the anchor pin. Also why they work better going forward than they do in reverse.

The springs are typically around 100 pounds of force. A simple calculation of pressure 10psi x area .80 equals a force of 5 lbs that the RPV is causing against the 100 lb force return springs. The 10 psi is from the RPV, the .80 is the diameter of the pistons in the wheel cylinder.

Don't believe the marketing.

 

[Head Lice]

Anyone used s/s brake line to make their headers?
Just askin' .......

 

[weldedcambolt]

heres the other problem. if we were talking about one brand of stainless hoses, against one brand of non stainless hoses. then you could come to some kind of conclusion about results, but with so many brands an qualities out there. there maybe a better result with one ss hose, than another ss hose, an the same with non ss brands. one junk brand of ss may feel not as good as non ss, an one good brand of non ss, may feel better than, a junk ss brand....an why you get so many different opinions..... if i got to ice cream parlor "candy land", an eat theres an then go to " candy mountain" an eat theirs, an they both claim to be yogurt ice cream. but on the day i ate at " candy land " it was ten degrees out, an it didnt melt as fast, an the day i ate at " candy mountain" it was 90 degrees out, it melted all over my new poindexter shoes, an i claimed the " candy land " was better, but was not eaten on a cold day, the results would be scewed? we need the myth busters to do this on one of their shows, along with headers plus, somebody may have took out their shoe inserts, the day they put in the ss brand an then it caused them to feel less spongy.....

 

[weldedcambolt]

Anyone used s/s brake line to make their headers?
Just askin' .......

http://nastyz28.com/threads/ceramic-vs-stainless-headers.262130/

for those who were saying that the headers crack more easily ———— were all types included in that, ceramic, stainless, s/s?

 

[mrblaine]

heres the other problem. if we were talking about one brand of stainless hoses, against one brand of non stainless hoses. then you could come to some kind of conclusion about results, but with so many brands an qualities out there. there maybe a better result with one ss hose, than another ss hose, an the same with non ss brands. one junk brand of ss may feel not as good as non ss, an one good brand of non ss, may feel better than, a junk ss brand....an why you get so many different opinions..... if i got to ice cream parlor "candy land", an eat theres an then go to " candy mountain" an eat theirs, an they both claim to be yogurt ice cream. but on the day i ate at " candy land " it was ten degrees out, an it didnt melt as fast, an the day i ate at " candy mountain" it was 90 degrees out, it melted all over my new poindexter shoes, an i claimed the " candy land " was better, but was not eaten on a cold day, the results would be scewed? we need the myth busters to do this on one of their shows, along with headers plus, somebody may have took out their shoe inserts, the day they put in the ss brand an then it caused them to feel less spongy.....

How many different brands would you have liked me to have dealt with before you believe that there is no difference in feel?

 

[Head Lice]

Is there a s/s brake line thread that discusses header questions ?
Just askin' ......

 

[mrblaine]

Is there a s/s brake line thread that discusses header questions ?
Just askin' ......

The reason they don't let me moderate forums is I would put folks that ask questions like this in a very special user group. They would be 100% in charge of making sure every thread does not deviate from the original topic. Given the directions threads take, that's a miserable job.

There is a mod on JF who kept closing threads that went off topic. I spent about a month giving him crap in every thread where he went off the rails and that slowed that shit right down.

 

[weldedcambolt]

How many different brands would you have liked me to have dealt with before you believe that there is no difference in feel?

some may have them green caluses they peel off their feet with a butter knife as my buddy used to do? so its like one of them high end word situations like...what do they call it.......i cant think of the high end word. —-objective or subjective view point? there it is
aint there like a jeep convention, that we can have different sets of ss an non ss, tested so we all can get in an pump the pedal on each brand....we can call it the " pedal pumper pushin jeepin convention". " or the pumpers pedal pushin jeepin convention"... we bring in all the brake line companys an show us what they got.......Its not that i dont trust you mrblaine,..........but i dont trust nobody, i take their opinions an they may hold more weight than the others....but to fully trust an believe.....were not on that level yet on earth of trully trusted higher spiritual beings.......... is there different feels of break pads, an calipers? is so, why cant there be different feels of brake lines? for the longest time, i was wearing whitey tightees, as a child, then i switch to the longer darker version of underwear an let me tell you the difference in feel from being choked an not choked by underwear...the world would be a better place without the whitee tightees.....an now i am obsessed with going to ollies to find the champion version two sizes bigger on markdown to afford more jeep parts. whens the next jeep convention, I am callin up all brake line companys to put it to the test.

 

[weldedcambolt]

The reason they don't let me moderate forums is I would put folks that ask questions like this in a very special user group. They would be 100% in charge of making sure every thread does not deviate from the original topic. Given the directions threads take, that's a miserable job.

There is a mod on JF who kept closing threads that went off topic. I spent about a month giving him crap in every thread where he went off the rails and that slowed that shit right down.

now, i dont know were you just went with this comment, if your good with going off thread or not. but ,you got to go back to chris - he started it with the stainless I was askin about headers. but all have covered a great amount of good information in here, to be used, even though its been like the tide of the ocean. Now on that note. when your out on the trail, with your gals an buddys, under the stars, jeepin, do you moderate all the conversations you have? that would be one miserable trip wouldnt it? some guy blowing a whistle when jack over there starts talkin about beatin up a bear an everbody else is talkin about climbing a tree. I dont know about you guys, but, when i am in something like this as a hobby, its like i am out in the woods, with all you people, an sometimes you have a jack, that goes off about talkin about beating up a bear, an you all take it in stride, an laugh over it. now if theres some price to pay for so many threads, or something, then put up the price this forum costs an let all know, an lets get the funds raised. etc...then let all know that lets all take a deep breath an close our eyes an pretend we are in the ozarks, an jack starts running after a bear... hey chris, start a group called "topic an maybe not" maybe that would help with this " going off thread situation in all the chat rooms on the internet. "

 

[mrblaine]

some may have them green caluses they peel off their feet with a butter knife as my buddy used to do? so its like one of them high end word situations like...what do they call it.......i cant think of the high end word. —-objective or subjective view point? there it is
aint there like a jeep convention, that we can have different sets of ss an non ss, tested so we all can get in an pump the pedal on each brand....we can call it the " pedal pumper pushin jeepin convention". " or the pumpers pedal pushin jeepin convention"... we bring in all the brake line companys an show us what they got.......Its not that i dont trust you mrblaine,..........but i dont trust nobody, i take their opinions an they may hold more weight than the others....but to fully trust an believe.....were not on that level yet on earth of trully trusted higher spiritual beings.......... is there different feels of break pads, an calipers? is so, why cant there be different feels of brake lines? for the longest time, i was wearing whitey tightees, as a child, then i switch to the longer darker version of underwear an let me tell you the difference in feel from being choked an not choked by underwear...the world would be a better place without the whitee tightees.....an now i am obsessed with going to ollies to find the champion version two sizes bigger on markdown to afford more jeep parts. whens the next jeep convention, I am callin up all brake line companys to put it to the test.

Subjective or not, as a brake kit designer, one of the things I am phenomenally sensitive to is brake pedal feel. It is very important to me that I design the system so that the pedal feel is very close to good functioning OEM in foot pressure, braking onset versus pedal stroke, and overall travel to lock up.

If I could improve, alter, or change pedal feel in any way possible by simply having a set of lines built and supply them, I would be a hero to my customers and my life would be simple. I can't, so I don't and I have to try and achieve my status of whatever level that may be in other ways. So, I calculate piston surface area versus master cylinder piston surface area versus the strength of the dual diaphragm booster and use those to get a base line to start trial and error. I've even changed an entire brake kit before and modified existing brackets and knuckles because I found a caliper with a stiffer more rigid bridge over the pad. I've also tested more brake pads for effectiveness, pedal feel, fade, and pedal onset than anyone you will ever find outside of a manufacturer. Over the years I've tested at least 30 different compounds in several different versions in both stock and BBK configurations.

I have also identified many different causes that produce an unsatisfactory pedal feel and how to cure them. That ranges from bent rear axles to improperly fitting guide pins which allow caliper sag and rotor run-out that causes caliper piston knock back. All of those can create slop in the brake pedal and produce a lower brake effort onset which I dislike strongly.

As for your premise that different lines produce a different feel, objectively, that type of line is constructed to commonly accepted standards and the pressure rating to which it is built is not subjective. It doesn't start life as a brake line. It starts as a Teflon tube with a pressure rating and then the SS braid is added to protect it. The Teflon tubing cannot have the pressure rating and be built in any other manner or it can't be rated at 3000 psi. Very much like your power steering pressure line, if it is rated at 3000 psi, it's rated at 3000 psi and you can like it or don't, but that won't change the pressure rating. The S/S braid over it only adds a small amount of pressure increase and it's main function is to protect the vulnerable plastic tubing from abrasion and damage. Now before start doubting any of that, you need to know that I built a pressure test bench with gauges so I can see how much pressure a master can develop and what the different ports on the combination valve do when that pressure starts rising.

I used that bench that goes up to 3100 psi on a SS braided line. I took a pair of sharp small snips and carefully cut away the outer braid to expose just the plastic tube, hooked it up and hit 3100 psi with it. There was no blow out, no expansion into the missing braid, no leak down, nothing but holding the pressure at 3100 psi.

What you might have missed or not quite understood is it is very easy to dismiss or marginalize commentary from the run of the mill average respondent to a particular issue and generally be accurate in your assessment that they may have limited knowledge or experience and are just a single data point in the average. I am not that person.

 

[mrblaine]

now, i dont know were you just went with this comment, if your good with going off thread or not. but ,you got to go back to chris - he started it with the stainless I was askin about headers. but all have covered a great amount of good information in here, to be used, even though its been like the tide of the ocean. Now on that note. when your out on the trail, with your gals an buddys, under the stars, jeepin, do you moderate all the conversations you have? that would be one miserable trip wouldnt it? some guy blowing a whistle when jack over there starts talkin about beatin up a bear an everbody else is talkin about climbing a tree. I dont know about you guys, but, when i am in something like this as a hobby, its like i am out in the woods, with all you people, an sometimes you have a jack, that goes off about talkin about beating up a bear, an you all take it in stride, an laugh over it. now if theres some price to pay for so many threads, or something, then put up the price this forum costs an let all know, an lets get the funds raised. etc...then let all know that lets all take a deep breath an close our eyes an pretend we are in the ozarks, an jack starts running after a bear... hey chris, start a group called "topic an maybe not" maybe that would help with this " going off thread situation in all the chat rooms on the internet. "

I tend to let folks be themselves and then add or remove myself from the situation as the need arises. There have only been a small number of times around the campfire where some folks got a bit out of hand with their vulgar comments in mixed company. I stopped it in short order by asking them for their wife's phone number. When they asked why I told them I was going to call them up and say the same vulgar shit to them that they were spewing out in front of other folks wives and if the wives around the campfire got to hear it, so would the wife of the shit talker. The shit talking ceased right after that.

 

[weldedcambolt]

Well, said, but, is all teflon tube, manufactured by one single manufacture, the exact same day, with the exact same chemicals, reproduced perfectly, time an time again, that they dont need quality control on them. Is ther allowable variances on that telfon tube coming out of the manufacturing process. just like a steel mill, has to check with their lab that what is coming out, meets expectations, an with variances. Not to mention the climate zone that they are going to be operating in. If it is not all coming from the same manufacture, the exact same way, differences in feel, we believe can be found, in everything. It may be slight, but as thousands an thousands an thousands of miles behind the wheel an brake pedal, some can be that sensitive, to feel even the slightest, variation of brake lines. The bottom of my foot is stamped brake pedal from the countless miles. you guys know its coming even if chris boots me out of here... hold on i be right back....

 

[weldedcambolt]

To stop a man from vulgaring up the campfire, around the ladys is admirable an higher beings appreciate it, as do the ladys, who dont like vulgar spattin at the campfire. makes the smores that less desirable for them. but back to the topic......the foot tattoed with "brake pedal" knows, that the stainless i put on, feels better, than non s/s...

 

[mrblaine]

Well, said, but, is all teflon tube, manufactured by one single manufacture, the exact same day, with the exact same chemicals, reproduced perfectly, time an time again, that they dont need quality control on them. Is ther allowable variances on that telfon tube coming out of the manufacturing process. just like a steel mill, has to check with their lab that what is coming out, meets expectations, an with variances. Not to mention the climate zone that they are going to be operating in. If it is not all coming from the same manufacture, the exact same way, differences in feel, we believe can be found, in everything. It may be slight, but as thousands an thousands an thousands of miles behind the wheel an brake pedal, some can be that sensitive, to feel even the slightest, variation of brake lines. The bottom of my foot is stamped brake pedal from the countless miles. you guys know its coming even if chris boots me out of here... hold on i be right back....

3000 psi is 3000 psi. Not much changes that.

 

[weldedcambolt]

Mr blaine, copy that, print it out, an hang it up in your shop, an when i come thru town, you will know it is me....... not many men will roll in town with that on their foot......

them their stainless strings...

 

[cliffish]

Mr blaine, copy that, print it out, an hang it up in your shop, an when i come thru town, you will know it is me....... not many men will roll in town with that on their foot......

them their stainless strings...

stop eating the shrooms!:copas:

 

[mrblaine]

To stop a man from vulgaring up the campfire, around the ladys is admirable an higher beings appreciate it, as do the ladys, who dont like vulgar spattin at the campfire. makes the smores that less desirable for them. but back to the topic......the foot tattoed with "brake pedal" knows, that the stainless i put on, feels better, than non s/s...View attachment 36679

You could easily test this yourself. Put a SS on one side and a Rubber OEM on the other side. If your theory is correct, you should have a pull to one side, right?