@toximus Just trying to find out information, how are you both using more than 4 inches of up travel on the road? Does your jeep lean that much when making turns?Agreed. Same on mine.
@toximus Just trying to find out information, how are you both using more than 4 inches of up travel on the road? Does your jeep lean that much when making turns?Agreed. Same on mine.
@toximus Just trying to find out information, how are you both using more than 4 inches of up travel on the road? Does your jeep lean that much when making turns?
At the risk of getting nitpicky (again), does anyone know what LCoG really means for a Jeep build? I don't. Except that an overarching desire for the idea of LCoG brings with it the very real risk for compromises that can overshadow other important considerations than where the center of gravity happens to be.
This is a reason why paying attention that factory 4" of up travel is meaningful. It focuses one's thinking into an area of objectivity. The rest of the build will fall into place depending on what you want to do with that measurement.
Our ideal LCOG builds are exactly the sameI'm one of the last remaining people who still likes the idea of LCOG. This is my thinking (whether it is right or wrong, I don't know).
I'm definitely not a fan of slamming too big of tires on with too small of a lift. I want up travel so I can cruise around comfortably, whether that be on-road or off-road. But at the same time, I value being able to point my Jeep at a very steep climb without worrying about rolling over backwards. When I think about a good LCOG build, I usually think something along the lines of 37's, 2.5" - 3" lift, 1.25" BL, relocated shock mounts, 100" WB, and highlines. Something like this is eventually where I'd like my Jeep to be. What up-travel numbers I'm going to get out of that, I have no clue. But I don't think that build philosophy is going to cause too many compromises.
At the end of the day, I think what up travel numbers and COG you're shooting for really depends on what you want to do with the Jeep. If I wanted to race through the desert, I'd be maximizing my up travel and looking at 8"+ if I was getting serious about it. But for what I like to do, slow crawling and steep / off-camber obstacles, I think a lower Jeep is better.
Some of my ideas on this come from comparing apples to oranges. I've attached a photo and a video of the buggy I was able to drive in Moab a few years ago. I've never driven a vehicle off-road that seemed so stable. You could point this thing at pretty much anything and it would crawl right up with no drama (no hopping, no feeling the front end getting light, nothing). There was one climb on Poison Spyder where a TJ with a 5.5" long arm almost ended up rolling over and was saved by the tire carrier. I drove this buggy right up with absolutely no problems what-so-ever. Whether it is possible to get buggy-like performance out of a TJ, I'm not sure. But I would like to get as close as humanely possible.
The buggy is pretty low when considering it is sitting on 42's. It is also a lot wider and a lot longer than a TJ. I know I am comparing two COMPLETELY different things, but I still think there is something to be learned.
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@toximus Just trying to find out information, how are you both using more than 4 inches of up travel on the road? Does your jeep lean that much when making turns?
We both have more than the factory amounts of shock travel. The lean is controlled by shocks and sway bars. It does exist. Though, the bulk of the travel is simply the axles being able to move up before transmitting that motion into the frame/body just driving down the street. It goes a long ways toward a comfortable ride.
I'm one of the last remaining people who still likes the idea of LCOG. This is my thinking (whether it is right or wrong, I don't know).
I'm definitely not a fan of slamming too big of tires on with too small of a lift. I want up travel so I can cruise around comfortably, whether that be on-road or off-road. But at the same time, I value being able to point my Jeep at a very steep climb without worrying about rolling over backwards. When I think about a good LCOG build, I usually think something along the lines of 37's, 2.5" - 3" lift, 1.25" BL, relocated shock mounts, 100" WB, and highlines. Something like this is eventually where I'd like my Jeep to be. What up-travel numbers I'm going to get out of that, I have no clue. But I don't think that build philosophy is going to cause too many compromises.
At the end of the day, I think what up travel numbers and COG you're shooting for really depends on what you want to do with the Jeep. If I wanted to race through the desert, I'd be maximizing my up travel and looking at 8"+ if I was getting serious about it. But for what I like to do, slow crawling and steep / off-camber obstacles, I think a lower Jeep is better.
Some of my ideas on this come from comparing apples to oranges. I've attached a photo and a video of the buggy I was able to drive in Moab a few years ago. I've never driven a vehicle off-road that seemed so stable. You could point this thing at pretty much anything and it would crawl right up with no drama (no hopping, no feeling the front end getting light, nothing). There was one climb on Poison Spyder where a TJ with a 5.5" long arm almost ended up rolling over and was saved by the tire carrier. I drove this buggy right up with absolutely no problems what-so-ever. Whether it is possible to get buggy-like performance out of a TJ, I'm not sure. But I would like to get as close as humanely possible.
The buggy is pretty low when considering it is sitting on 42's. It is also a lot wider and a lot longer than a TJ. I know I am comparing two COMPLETELY different things, but I still think there is something to be learned.
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I value being able to point my Jeep at a very steep climb without worrying about rolling over backwards.
a TJ with a 5.5" long arm almost ended up rolling over and was saved by the tire carrier
While on the topic of stability how do you feel about up vs down travel. 50/50 or do you prefer to favor one over another? I would think a LCoG build would have far more down then up travel unless the mounts were moved.
Also, if one is concerned about COG on a steep climb could a suck down winch come into play?
Let me ask this. Say you put two nearly identical Jeeps at the same angle using a forklift or something similar. But one Jeep has a 4" lift and the other Jeep has a 2" lift. Will the 2" lift Jeep be able to be put a steeper angler before tipping over? In my mind yes, but I'm open to hear thoughts on that.
Exactly, well said, and better said than my own contribution above. Those are important nuances not grasped by many.From what I've seen, most "LCoG" builds are heavily biased towards down travel.
Something to consider is that the further a tire can be pushed up, the less the body will be shoved up and over by that rising tire. This is an area of added stability and control that LCoG builds do not benefit from. In fact, that aspect of stability is often reduced, despite the desire to build a more stable Jeep.
Those of us who are critical of LCoG are not against a low center of gravity. Most of us are opposed to a needlessly high center of gravity (wherever that is). We are critical of placing too much focus on that one area. Especially when it is at the expense of other important aspects of the build.
I wheel on a trail and not on forklifts.
From what I've seen, most "LCoG" builds are heavily biased towards down travel.
Something to consider is that the further a tire can be pushed up, the less the body will be shoved up and over by that rising tire. This is an area of added stability and control that LCoG builds do not benefit from. In fact, that aspect of stability is often reduced, despite the desire to build a more stable Jeep.
Those of us who are critical of LCoG are not against a low center of gravity. We are critical of placing too much focus on that one area. Especially when it is at the expense of other important aspects of the build.
Mine currently has a bit more up than down. I think when more gets sorted and settled, it will be closer to 50/50.
As far as the suck down winch goes I'm asking out of general curiosity not trying to solve any issues. Recently just read about them.If you have the choice, 50/50 works well.
I think we're worrying about it more than it is a problem.
Mine currently sits around 50/50 but I'm installing smaller shocks in order to get more up travel so it will be closer to 65/35 up. But, I'll only be losing around 1 inch of usable down travel. In doing so though I can take off 1.25 of bump. I'm really interested how things will measure out once I get the new shocks in and how it will feel on the trails.Mine currently has a bit more up than down. I think when more gets sorted and settled, it will be closer to 50/50.
Weren't you going to raise the front upper shock mount?....
Mine currently sits around 50/50 but I'm installing smaller shocks in order to get more up travel so it will be closer to 65/35 up. But, I'll only be losing around 1 inch of usable down travel but take off 1.25 of bump. I'm really interested how things will measure out once I get the new shocks in and how it will feel on the trails.
I went over to @bobthetj03 and the TB was still interfering with the uptravel so we didn't do anything. I finally got it sorted out by centering the axle a bit better. My short term solution is to put smaller shocks in then decide if I want to go all out and get fox shocks, sweet talk @bobthetj03 into allowing me swing by again for round 2 to make the extensions for the ranchos, or leave the smaller bodied shocks in.Weren't you going to raise the front upper shock mount?
You are unnecessarily obsessed with lean. You just have to get over that problem with lean since it is normal if you're not staying on flat easy trails.What about this. Take a completely stock TJ and change nothing besides adding a 4" lift. From my understanding, that Jeep will now have 8" of up travel (assuming tires are still stock as well). If you head out on the trail with a non-lifted stock Jeep, which Jeep is going to lean more on a given obstacle? Which is going to have more trouble with climbing?
My intuition is that the Jeep with the lift will lean less while climbing over a boulder with one tire since the up travel is going to take up more of the lean. The tire will move up instead of the body. But when you get all 4 tires on a steep climb or 2 tires on an off camber obstacle, the Jeep with the lift is going to lean a lot more.