Highline or Lift?

jodomcfrodo said:
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My intuition is that the Jeep with the lift will lean less while climbing over a boulder with one tire since the up travel is going to take up more of the lean. The tire will move up instead of the body. But when you get all 4 tires on a steep climb or 2 tires on an off camber obstacle, the Jeep with the lift is going to lean a lot more.
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If a shelf road leans the Jeep hard towards the cliff edge into the abyss, one way to fix that would be to put a taller pair of tires on the low side to level things out. Problem solved... Until the turn around at the top.

A good trail will have everything you describe. Climbs, hard leans, twists, fast and slow sections. Put together a build that can tackle all of those things pretty well. If the build focuses too much on solving one problem, it will suffer when you encounter others.
 
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jodomcfrodo said:
I guess I'll head back to the mall then. Question still stands if you want to give it a shot.
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Will a Jeep TJ be able to trailer more than an XJ? I think we all know the answer, but is the question relevant to our discussion? I don't think the tipping point is relevant to our discussion if neither of us are reaching that point.
 
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Jerry Bransford said:
You are unnecessarily obsessed with lean. You just have to get over that problem with lean since it is normal if you're not staying on flat easy trails.

Did you not take a good hard look at that blue TJ that is tipped WAY over yet it didn't flop over? Or my red TJ leaning over nearly if not as far? Jeeps will lean on trails. My wife started literally shrieking on a VERY slightly off-camber section of trail. We were barely (BARELY) at an angle yet because she was new to offroading, it freaked her out. I stopped the Jeep at that point, helped her out, and we both walked behind the Jeep so she could see the very (!) slight couple-degree angle it was at. When she saw it, then she realized it wasn't much of an angle at all but inside the Jeep, her stomach and mind put her into a panic thinking we were about to roll.

As said above, the newer the Jeeper is to offroading, the more such relatively minor angles will scare them. Again, take a look at the blue TJ above and my red TJ. Neither flopped onto the side. You just have to recalibrate your stomach and mind so they're no longer worried about such things. Like a pilot gets used to steep turns, aerobatics, etc. that would scare a non-pilot sitting next to him.
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I've leaned my Jeep over pretty hard before. Not scared of it, just want to maximize how far I can lean the Jeep over before it becomes a problem. The more you are able to lean over, the more options there are when attacking an obstacle.

I also want a stable Jeep so I can drive up steeper obstacles, because that is what I find fun. I've found the limit to how far I feel comfortable pushing the Jeep on climbs. I've driven other vehicles that have a significantly higher limit.

Also, I wouldn't say I'm particularly new to off-roading or Jeeps ;)

toximus said:
Will a Jeep TJ be able to trailer more than an XJ? I think we all know the answer, but is the question relevant to our discussion? I don't think the tipping point is relevant to our discussion if neither of us are reaching that point.
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Why aren't you reaching the tipping point? Would you be able to run tougher trails and take on more obstacles if the tipping point was higher? I view it the same way as putting bigger tires and a lift on a TJ. There are trails that require big tires and a lift. There are also trails that require your Jeep to lean over a significant amount, probably more than what both of our tipping points are right now.
 
jodomcfrodo said:
Would you be able to run tougher trails and take on more obstacles if the tipping point was higher?
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My wife's khaki TJ is setup to tackle 90-95% of the trails in the US (that is, if I wasn't concerned about scratches on this one). I am building my red LJ to tackle closer to 98-99% of the trails in the US. I don't think the tipping point is my limitation on either.

There will always be obstacles that I won't be able to do, but those are different than trails.
 
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Let me ask you directly Jodomcfrodo.... are you leaning your Jeep over as steep as the below TJ is that didn't flop over? I strongly doubt it.

Here is that Jeep again... did it roll as steeply as it is leaning over? There are lessons to be learned from others.

Jon in Johnson Valley.JPG
 
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Jerry Bransford said:
Let me ask you directly Jodomcfrodo.... are you leaning your Jeep over as steep as that blue TJ is that didn't flop over? I strongly doubt it.

Here is that blue Jeep again... did it roll as steeply as it is leaning over? There are lessons to be learned from others.

View attachment 94136
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Something interesting to mention about this one is that due to unforeseen issues it was initially lifted a few inches higher than it was supposed to be. It looks like it was still at that incorrect lift height during that trail ride. Still didn't tip.
 
toximus said:
My wife's khaki TJ is setup to tackle 90-95% of the trails in the US (that is, if I wasn't concerned about scratches on this one). I am building my red LJ to tackle closer to 98-99% of the trails in the US. I don't think the tipping point is my limitation on either.

There will always be obstacles that I won't be able to do, but those are different than trails.
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What do you think the limitation for the red LJ is? I know at least for me, I've looked at a couple of obstacles that I would have wanted to do, but they were just too steep for my short-wheelbase, lifted TJ. If my TJ was lower and longer, I think I would have had no problems with those obstacles, but I'll probably never know.


Jerry Bransford said:
Let me ask you directly Jodomcfrodo.... are you leaning your Jeep over as steep as the below TJ is that didn't flop over? I strongly doubt it.

Here is that Jeep again... did it roll as steeply as it is leaning over? There are lessons to be learned from others.

View attachment 94136
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Not too worried about side to side flopping. Like I said earlier, I am worried about stability and the front end getting light while climbing. I've put my Jeep at some serious angles (at least it would seem so from the drivers seat). Not sure how those angles compare to your picture. Just out of pure curiosity, how wide are the axles on that Jeep?

And I'm always up for learning from others. It is why I preface a lot of my posts with "I don't know" or "I'm happy to hear what others say". I've never claimed to know the answer to this question.
 
I'm more interested in Jerry's jeep than trying to compare ours to the blue jeep. Its on 1 ton axles and coil overs. This is comparing apples to oranges . One ton axles definitely weigh more than our Stock Dana 44's, Dana 30's and Dana 35's. Coil overs perform much differently than a shock and spring set up. I see that there are lessons to be learned from others but this lesson should be taught to someone who is thinking about building a jeep with one ton axles and coils. Not someone who is simply looking to compare whether they should do a small lift kit or a highline fender kit. @Jerry Bransford is your Red jeep on coils or does it have a spring and shock suspension?
 
From the vast amounts of youtube vidoes I've seen it seems like the major cause of a rollover is not knowing when to stop giving it gas, sudden movements, not backing out, and completely unloading the suspension at steep angles. I think you could argue that the driver is much larger factor then the lift itself.

At the time this felt like I was going vertical so I got out to take a photo. Clearly you can see I wasn't even close.
94141
 
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If you want a more stable rig off road, up travel is important. Whatever lift height you need for the tire size you want to run, you want to maximize up travel. If you want to play the forklift game, lift a corner with the front sway bar connected. Notice where my front tire is in relation to the fender.
DSCN0929.JPG

Now look at where my opposing rear tire is at and how far it is stuffed.
DSCN0932.JPG

Ok, now disco the front sway bar and repeat. See how much more up travel I gained as the front wheel is more stuffed into the wheel well.
DSCN0935.JPG

Notice now how my rear tire isn't nearly as stuffed and thus leveled out the jeep making it more stable while off camber?
DSCN0938.JPG

The LCOG philosophy tends to cloud other areas of importance if you want to consider stability.
 
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An interesting thing about Moab is that due to the incredible traction, I was making climbs and leans that would be nearly impossible in Colorado. The Jeep never felt unstable or out of control because the terrain rarely allowed the Jeep to slip and slide.

Two clear limitations on mine that I recognize are my current tire traction and diff clearance. Both of these can be addressed with a different tire.
 
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bobthetj03 said:
If you want a more stable rig off road, up travel is important. Whatever lift height you need for the tire size you want to run, you want to maximize up travel. If you want to play the forklift game, lift a corner with the front sway bar connected. Notice where my front tire is in relation to the fender.
View attachment 94137
Now look at where my opposing rear tire is at and how far it is stuffed.
View attachment 94138
Ok, now disco the front sway bar and repeat. See how much more up travel I gained as the front wheel is more stuffed into the wheel well.
View attachment 94140
Notice now how my rear tire isn't nearly as stuffed and thus leveled out the jeep making it more stable while off camber?
View attachment 94142
The LCOG philosophy tends to cloud other areas of importance if you want to consider stability.
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Ok, that series of photos was worth the price of admission. Thanks bobthetj03!
 
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Alex01 said:
To each there own. I like the looks of a built TJ with high-lines, a cage, big tires, and lots of armor. I disagree about your statement that MC fenders are "half assed" they are exceptionally well built. Are there better options out there that get better clearance. Yes, but MC offers a fender that does gain clearance and is also easy enough for a hobbyist to install.
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The half assed referred to the inner fender and the OEM parts that don't align with MC's design.
 
Farmergreg said:
The half assed referred to the inner fender and the OEM parts that don't align with MC's design.
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Maybe it was built around a pre-2003 model because I didn't have any issue with alignment of any stock parts with the inner fender. The only issue I ran into was where to mount my arb since the OEM fenders were flat in the area I mounted the arb and the MC were angled.
Jerry Bransford said:
I don't know but the axles in the below photo of my TJ are stock width.

View attachment 94154
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That photo makes me cringe every time you post it :ROFLMAO: It looks like the guy in the white shirt is actively trying to push you over.
 
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