Huckster
TJ Enthusiast
I think I bought the correct Rancho shocks for a stock height TJ
Rough ride
- Thread starter LJtheunicorn
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I think I bought the correct Rancho shocks for a stock height TJ
I know that I’m gonna be out of school a little bit in what I’m about to say but if you think about it maybe it has some merit-
Of course I don’t know if anything I’ve ever said on here did
To echo Jerry what I was thinking was the dirtbike world- We are basically riding directly on a spring- But the spring really doesn’t give you the ride as much as it gives you the shock position that you work from-
A soft spring would seem to be cushy but if the vehicle is too heavy or in the dirtbike case the Rider weighs too much you blow right through the spring and ride in the bottom of the spring which is harsh
If the spring keeps you high in the stroke of the shock you have the ability to travel through the shock but if the vehicle is too light then again it feels harsh
So to some degree the spring in shock need to work together-
No I do not think that there is a perfect parallel between a dirtbike and a jeep but I think some of that thinking can certainly be brought into the conversation-
I think the one thing that really stands out to me is really how much more there is to know than the average guy like me knows with both a two wheeled and four-wheel vehicle and all the things that go on when it starts moving.
There does not exist on the face of this planet any springs made for a TJ and its derivatives that you can NOT blow right through. It is that simple.
I had 5 paragraphs written to help with understanding, fuck it, makes no difference anyway.
Yep , it is gonna happen. Seems like the springs setting you up in a good position for that to happen so the shocks can dampen that movement would be a goal. Which is nothing more than planned travel I guess.
All over my head for sure.
It isn't over your head. Springs do one thing and that is to create the ride height. They have no perceivable effect on the ride.
But if anyone wants to refute this, they are more than welcome to ask @DirkDPG to explain how to choose and tune a spring for ride quality. But he won't because he can't. I've tried.
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Huckster
TJ Enthusiast
Here’s pics of rear shocks and springs. I don’t know that this will help, but picture worth 1k words…mayb
Get yourself a tape measure.
From the factory, the rear spring should measure about 8" tall as the Jeep sits in the garage. The exposed shock shaft under the red boot should be about 3.5-4" inches. Someone else can talk to you about the Rancho 5000 shocks.
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I’ve decided to take one for the team. The wife bought a set of rancho 5000 for me for Christmas. I’ll remove the ome shocks and report back after she lets me have them for Christmas. The ome shocks ride like a log wagon. Cmon Christmas
What would it take to convince you or anyone else as to why we say "springs don't matter"?
We'll take the most difficult rig that folks consider to make ride well and start with it.
4"ish lifted TJ on short arms with no top, tire on the tailgate, 35's on 17" rims, we'll even use Johnny Joints in the arms since they ride like shit.
That's the rig, what has to happen in the form of any test you can think of that doesn't involve replacing the springs to prove to you that they don't matter? Or, I'll set it up to ride nicely, you bring me any TJ 4" set of springs that doesn't alter the ride height more than 1/2" and we can see if you can tell the difference in spring. Would that do it or you have an idea for some other test to put this shit to bed once and for all? What will it take?
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Help me out, I have read that spring frequency has something to do with shocks and ride. Did I miss something or were these guys wrong?
Explain spring frequency to us and how that affects ride quality and then I will explain which parts you fucked up.
When did I say they did ? Sorry, I just have no idea where this is coming from.
I was talking about how on a dirt bike, you are sitting on the spring- and the spring doesn’t do anything but set the ride height and the shock is the ride.
And if the spring is soft, you get into the hard part of the shock if it is valved such….and that it likely has no correlation to all this anyway- just an observation from my limited experience.
Maybe I didn’t state it well, but that is what I was getting at. In other words it seems the springs’ job is to set the shock up to do it’s job at the planned ride height , and the shock is thus designed accordingly for the expected travel.
I really don’t see how a piece of coiled steel could or ever will be designed or made to do more, and be reliably mass produced if it could.
Maybe I should be on a pogo stick forum.
Many papers by industry experts, (see links https://www.ijera.com/papers/vol9no3/Series-3/K0903036064 .pdf , https://www.drtuned.com/tech-ramblings/2017/10/2/spring-rates-suspension-frequencies, https://www.racecompengineering.com...pring-rates-part-2-suspension-frequenciesthat ), that seem to think frequency is an issue critical to ride quality.
I didn't ask for a link. I want you to tell me how to do it on springs that go under a TJ, nothing more.
I really struggled with understanding how different springs couldn't impact the ride. Not being able to reconcile this without practical experience, I took the old fashion way and experimented. The experimentation was driven by the fact that my TJ is very light and, even after finding the softest shock, the ride is a little stiff for my liking.
Since I happened to have four different sets of springs (H&R, Nth Degree, Rock Jock (Currie), and Pro Comp), along with two sets of the same style shocks (Black Max), I spent some time swapping them. After going through all four sets, the ride did not change. I know this to be true, because I'm very in tune with how my Jeep rides, handles, and even sounds.
Granted, this is a small sample set, but it was enough to demonstrate what has been said here repeatedly, springs don't impact ride. The Pro Comp Springs aren't in this picture, those were swapped later, but here are the other three. Interesting to me was the fact that the rear springs varied significantly in spring thickness, while the fronts were very close. After experimenting, I became a believer.
Since I happened to have four different sets of springs (H&R, Nth Degree, Rock Jock (Currie), and Pro Comp), along with two sets of the same style shocks (Black Max), I spent some time swapping them. After going through all four sets, the ride did not change. I know this to be true, because I'm very in tune with how my Jeep rides, handles, and even sounds.
Granted, this is a small sample set, but it was enough to demonstrate what has been said here repeatedly, springs don't impact ride. The Pro Comp Springs aren't in this picture, those were swapped later, but here are the other three. Interesting to me was the fact that the rear springs varied significantly in spring thickness, while the fronts were very close. After experimenting, I became a believer.
Yes, that is correct. On a dirt bike. Any dirt bike suspension tuner can tell you that. But that is a dirt bike- and that is at speed, and usually on a hard hit or long deep high speed turn. That is why spring rates and rider weight are tuned together….so the shock is able to do its’ job….and it’s’ valving comes in to play.
When a Jeep does that- blows through the stroke- I would think it is going so slow it doesn’t matter. And sooo much more is going on.
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Ride height still matters regardless of the application. The difference that matters is that with a bike, the rider is significantly closer to the weight of the bike than it is on a Jeep. When you jump into the Jeep, you aren't doubling the sprung weight. The spring isn't soft or hard. It is simply the appropriate design to support the bike and rider at a certain ride height and fit within the suspension.
So they are adjusting spring rate to set ride height based on how much the rider weighs so the shock is operating in the correct shaft travel bias. Well, fancy fucking that since that is precisely what springs on a Jeep do.
I can set you up with shocks that will jar your fillings out in 1" of travel either side of ride height, now what?
Shock location has zero to do with it. I can do the same with the shocks in the stock location, you may not like the tops of the shock hoops intruding into the passenger cargo area though. The reason to outboard is to get a longer travel shock to give it more time to do its job. Nothing else.
I really struggled with understanding how different springs couldn't impact the ride. Not being able to reconcile this without practical experience, I took the old fashion way and experimented. The experimentation was driven by the fact that my TJ is very light and, even after finding the softest shock, the ride is a little stiff for my liking.
Since I happened to have four different sets of springs (H&R, Nth Degree, Rock Jock (Currie), and Pro Comp), along with two sets of the same style shocks (Black Max), I spent some time swapping them. After going through all four sets, the ride did not change. I know this to be true, because I'm very in tune with how my Jeep rides, handles, and even sounds.
Granted, this is a small sample set, but it was enough to demonstrate what has been said here repeatedly, springs don't impact ride. The Pro Comp Springs aren't in this picture, those were swapped later, but here are the other three. Interesting to me was the fact that the rear springs varied significantly in spring thickness, while the fronts were very close. After experimenting, I became a believer.
What is lost on so many people is that the spring is only reacting to the weight on top of it. And when a spring is designed to create a certain ride height and also function within the limits of a suspension, there is a narrow range of variables to work within. Meaning that the available springs that create the desired ride height are not very different from each other.
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