Rough ride

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There does not exist on the face of this planet any springs made for a TJ and its derivatives that you can NOT blow right through. It is that simple.

I had 5 paragraphs written to help with understanding, fuck it, makes no difference anyway.

Very few want to listen, even fewer want to pay attention. I now understand at least partially how you’ve become the way you are in terms of simply not giving a crap.
 
What is lost on so many people is that the spring is only reacting to the weight on top of it. And when a spring is designed to create a certain ride height and also function within the limits of a suspension, there is a narrow range of variables to work within. Meaning that the available springs that create the desired ride height are not very different from each other.

The only change I noticed across 4 sets of Springs was the ride height!
 
What is lost on so many people is that the spring is only reacting to the weight on top of it. And when a spring is designed to create a certain ride height and also function within the limits of a suspension, there is a narrow range of variables to work within. Meaning that the available springs that create the desired ride height are not very different from each other.

Put another way, if you take the highest rate 4" spring and the lowest rate 4" spring, subtract the lower from the higher, the difference in spring rate will be less than 15-20%. No one is able to discern the difference in 2 rates within 20% of each other.
 
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Very few want to listen, even fewer want to pay attention. I now understand at least partially how you’ve become the way you are in terms of simply not giving a crap.

Exactly. I was trying to say in the Jeep world it seems all the spring does is set it up for the shock to do it’s work… And that sort of went off the rails. Even in the world of sophisticated suspension tuning in dirt bikes at the highest competition level you can’t tell very much about spring rate or progressive springs or anything like that….they valve the shock for the work, and the spring tends to be the macro to control the height it starts from. It is pretty funny though that guys will swear by all sorts of imaginary feedback they get from springs and playing with the clickers that control high speed, low speed compression and rebound… especially us lower level riders.


A lot of guys will pay for expensive suspension tuning and basically I just get mine sprung for my weight and set to about the factory specifications and the rest of it is just seat time. Being a better rider is really where it is.




I went to Magnolia Springs today- I wonder if that has anything to do with this-

DA903C06-A682-42B6-A073-BD4D3E3E4ADE.jpeg
 
Exactly. I was trying to say in the Jeep world it seems all the spring does is set it up for the shock to do it’s work… And that sort of went off the rails.
It only goes off the rails because you steer it there right after you say something that says you get it, then you post up something to the contrary.
Being a better rider is really where it is.
You can be the best driver in the world and that still won't fix a crappy ride quality in a TJ.
 
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I'm curious as to what is considered "Rides good" to most people? Soft and spongy, firm and well planted, Pillowy, corners like it's on rails.... Why not set the ride height with coilovers, or softer springs and spacers, or those JKS Acos adjustable spring pad/bumpstops? What roll in ride comfort do the antisway bars contribute? Don't forget tire pressure which is also a sort of spring. And what about side to side body roll/lean and weight transfer...

I personally believe that everything will work best when it's all planned out and designed to work all together as a system. I feel like to many Jeeps are built with lots of good parts, that aren't meant to be playing together. It's like you plan on baking a cake, but half way through mixing the eggs, butter and sugar, instead of adding flour and cocoa, you add peperoni, mozzerella, and onions... then you wonder why your Pizza didn't turn out right...

If you really want a soft ride, just keep it stock and add a 3" body lift, then raise the bumpers and install lift lips in the fender wells to hide the ugly gaps.
 
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I'm curious as to what is considered "Rides good" to most people? Soft and spongy, firm and well planted, Pillowy, corners like it's on rails.... Why not set the ride height with coilovers, or softer springs and spacers, or those JKS Acos adjustable spring pad/bumpstops? What roll in ride comfort do the antisway bars contribute? Don't forget tire pressure which is also a sort of spring. And what about side to side body roll/lean and weight transfer...
Take any aspect or combination thereof, and I can produce that result from rides good, to rides like shit, to corners like its on rails, spongy, firm and well planted and change nothing but the shocks assuming any 4" spring lift and any workable suspension and steering. We can make it go from scary amounts of body roll to Oh Crap, someone put rails on the street to make this thing turn and never touch any other part of the rig except the shocks.
I personally believe that everything will work best when it's all planned out and designed to work all together as a system. I feel like to many Jeeps are built with lots of good parts, that aren't meant to be playing together. It's like you plan on baking a cake, but half way through mixing the eggs, butter and sugar, instead of adding flour and cocoa, you add peperoni, mozzerella, and onions... then you wonder why your Pizza didn't turn out right...

If you really want a soft ride, just keep it stock and add a 3" body lift, then raise the bumpers and install lift lips in the fender wells to hide the ugly gaps.
Not sure why stock is your benchmark. The stock shocks on our 04 were never that impressive, nor on the 99, the other 04, or the 01. I wouldn't call them soft, more along the lines of semi squishy with a non linear abrupt response to moderate events with lower compression damping than desired and far too easy to blow through the valving on anything larger at speed.

But yes, stuff always works better when it it all paid attention to with a keen eye on keeping it all in balance. Once you find a way to do that, you wind up with something that is greater than the sum of the parts.
 
I think I bought the correct Rancho shocks for a stock height TJ

The problem with rancho shocks is they run long. You are always better off to do the math and double check it against the specs provided by rancho to verify they are correct for your application
 
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For a minute, I thought I was on JF from 5 years ago. :unsure:

Or 10 years ago, or 15 years ago. It never changes does it? Always the same confusion, always the same contrary examples that have the same relevance as comparing pomegranates and monkey poo. Always the same folks who claim ONLY as spring swap softened the ride but yet don't know what the shock bias was before. And the absolute worst and I mean the worst willful ignorance is on full display when a post like Irun's about swapping in 4 different sets of springs with no perceptible difference is ride quality is observed.

Why is that? Why is a very valid experiment to understand how it really works fully ignored? Why was there no discussion or even a "Hey, we think you did it wrong, did you account for this or that or blah blah blah, anything except "crickets". Not for nothing, but it is more than a casual bit of work to find something out and yet, nothing, no "hey, thanks for taking one for the team", nothing, just silence.

Same for anyone offering up what they would like to see as a test to show what they want to know to finally prove that springs don't matter.

If you look at the other side of that, the folks who understand, don't have anything for sale. They don't give a shit, they don't care what you run. Just don't fucking lie about it. A bunch of the folks who do care so much, yep, they got something for sale.

I'll also bet you good money that you can ask most on here why it matters to me and very few will believe I don't benefit from convincing them to run Savvy or Currie/RJ and nothing is further from the truth. I don't and haven't made a single thin dime from their choices in suspension.

Why is the reluctance so high to even try and understand?

Sadly, most of that is just rhetorical and I'll tell you why. I've got a good friend whose Jeep and suspension knowledge is internet and YouTube based. He is a victim of just not knowing any better. He was visiting, per usual, the discussion is suspension, ride quality, etc. and he like most believes that everything but the shocks is more important to ride quality. So, I toss him the keys to the big black beast on 40's and tell him to go drive it.

He returns, gets out, starts looking under the rig closer and then says that he is pretty sure that the big tires are what are soaking up all the bumps. Not the shocks, etc. has to be the tires. Okay, fine, stand right there and watch. We reach in and crank the high speed adjusters all the way in, toss him the keys again to go for a drive. He returns, gets out, I ask how the ride is. Well, it kinda rides like shit. Why yes it does sir, but tell me, did you see us change tire pressure, springs, arm length, ride height, add weight, remove weight, or do anything but touch the shocks? No, but it has to be something else, I know it is the shocks, I know what I felt but I still don't really believe it. Has to be the wheelbase.


So that's why all of the drivel above is rhetoric. Here is a gent who is driving it, feeling it, seeing it, and yet, even the night and day difference in how it rides is still not enough to change his education. After that, what chance does the written word have?
 
What would it take to convince you or anyone else as to why we say "springs don't matter"?
We'll take the most difficult rig that folks consider to make ride well and start with it.
4"ish lifted TJ on short arms with no top, tire on the tailgate, 35's on 17" rims, we'll even use Johnny Joints in the arms since they ride like shit.

That's the rig, what has to happen in the form of any test you can think of that doesn't involve replacing the springs to prove to you that they don't matter? Or, I'll set it up to ride nicely, you bring me any TJ 4" set of springs that doesn't alter the ride height more than 1/2" and we can see if you can tell the difference in spring. Would that do it or you have an idea for some other test to put this shit to bed once and for all? What will it take?

My comments have been regarding OME coils in the 2.5" range, as most everything we're doing these days is centered on low COG builds. Not here to argue 2.5", 4" or whatever. To each their own on that.

I have mad respect for your knowledge and always have. I can only respectfully disagree with the spring rate argument though. I get it- some coils seem to exhibit the same ride quality as others that some have tried. I also understand completely that a softer shock will ride smoother than a shock with firmer valving.
I have no argument with any of that.

My main point is that even minor spring differences make a noticeable difference in ride quality when working with OME coils. My experience with these springs is based on 23 years of installing them and working with different coil rates within the OME family, and yes, we are talking about coils that sit very close to the same ride height. Jeeps often get heavier as guys add accessories. A significant weight increase on one end of the jeep (like a heavy front bumper and winch) call for a heavier spring rate to carry that weight like the lighter spring did before the weight was added.

One guy on here is replacing his rear coils very soon. He is going from coils rated at 160/lbs in to coils that are rated at 140lbs/ in. I have done this swap before with guys who end up running very light in back (spare removed, stock rear bumper, soft top or no top, etc) and the difference in ride quality is indeed very noticeable. Let's see what he reports back soon.

It is not my intention to argue and start trouble. I am just as firmly planted on this issue with OME springs as you and some others are with others.
Let me ask you this- If spring rates make a noticeable difference in ride quality with OME coils, can we really say that EVERY other coil out there rides the same regardless of spring rate?

I would love to settle this issue once and for all. It's every bit as frustrating for me as it is for you. We're each just involved more in different ride heights generally. I know from over 2 decades of experience with these particular coils that the difference is very real.
I don't know if anyone is willing, but if some folks want to come to my place, I would be more than happy to set up a time where we can install several sets of OME springs on a TJ and let the chips fall where they may. We can test drive the same exact jeep with the coils being the only difference and see what happens. If I am wrong, the world will see and the issue will be put to rest as I am exiled to the shameful nether regions. If I am right, we can AT LEAST agree that spring rates do matter- at least with OME coils.

Either way, perhaps we could at least come to a place where the topic isn't so venomous...
 
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It isn't over your head. Springs do one thing and that is to create the ride height. They have no perceivable effect on the ride.

But if anyone wants to refute this, they are more than welcome to ask @DirkDPG to explain how to choose and tune a spring for ride quality. But he won't because he can't. I've tried.

I talk to customers every day regarding which coil rates will best suit their jeeps. Not comparing RE, Currie or other brands with each other, but primarily within the Old Man Emu family, since that is what I work with the most. Lighter spring rates for lighter jeeps, heavier spring rates as the jeeps get heavier. This is what the different spring rates are designed for.
 
If I am right, we can AT LEAST agree that spring rates do matter- at least with OME coils.

It doesn't make sense that it would matter with OME coils and not with others.

There are not that many parameters that affect the rate —> pitch, wire diameter, mean diameter (average of ID/OD), coil angle, free length (or number of active coils). The factory springs were special since their wire diameter changed constantly, but even if you consider progressive or dual rate coils and such .. everything is well quite well understood.

So either rates will affect ride quality for ALL coils, or it would not for all coils. OME can NOT be the only ones where it matters.
 
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It doesn't make sense that it would matter with OME coils and not with others.

There are not that many parameters that affect the rate —> pitch, wire diameter, mean diameter (average of ID/OD), coil angle, free length (or number of active coils). The factory springs were special since their wire diameter changed constantly, but even if you consider progressive or dual rate coils and such .. everything is well quite well understood.

So either rates will affect ride quality for ALL coils, or it would not for all coils. OME can NOT be the only ones where it matters.

Linear rate springs like OME, BDS, RE, etc, all work the same way. And they can all be calculated the same way. Even the allegedly dual, triple, quadruple rate coils are really just linear rate coils wound with tighter sections. The wire diameter is consistent throughout. And most don't transition between wound sections during normal driving.

The bottom line is that Old Man Emu coils are not unique or magical. The only thing they have over other brands is a broader range of rates and lengths that allow for some more nuance in selecting a lift height in the 0-3" range on a TJ.
 
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For some reference, here are several rear coil springs in the 1-3" lift range. The lift heights are calculated based on a 920lb sprung corner weight.
Screenshot_20221024-101543_Sheets.jpg


And here is another set based on a 875lb rear corner sprung weight.
Screenshot_20221024-102642_Sheets.jpg
 
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It doesn't make sense that it would matter with OME coils and not with others.

There are not that many parameters that affect the rate —> pitch, wire diameter, mean diameter (average of ID/OD), coil angle, free length (or number of active coils). The factory springs were special since their wire diameter changed constantly, but even if you consider progressive or dual rate coils and such .. everything is well quite well understood.

So either rates will affect ride quality for ALL coils, or it would not for all coils. OME can NOT be the only ones where it matters.

Good point. So, if we can clearly demonstrate that this is true with OME coils, we really cannot say it is true with ALL coils then can we? The best we can say is it is true with SOME coils that people have used. I know how it sounds, but that doesn't change the facts.
 
Good point. So, if we can clearly demonstrate that this is true with OME coils, we really cannot say it is true with ALL coils then can we? The best we can say is it is true with SOME coils that people have used. I know how it sounds, but that doesn't change the facts.

The facts are that even with your examples, the ride height changes. And the fact remains that with low amounts of up travel, as found on LCoG builds, a small change in ride height can make the difference between running into the jounces or not. And that is before running into full shock compression. All of this is changing the ride quality more dramatically than any spring rate change that isn't overshadowed by filling an empty gas tank.

How many of your customers can tell by feel alone that the gas tank is empty?
 
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