having tossed my hat into a few of these debates. i have learned CA length is moot. and frame end mount location is most important.
What long arm kit?
- Thread starter fourmustangs
- Start date
Define long arm and short arm. How do you know they are using long arms and not mid-arms? What length would their arms have to be to be considered “short arms”?
Also, why is it that a long arm is so much better than a short arm? What is it about the long arm that makes it better than the short arm?
These are serious questions, not trolling.
I think the point of this thread is that there is no such thing as a bolt-on long arm kit that is any better than a short arm lift as far as TJs are concerned.
The bolt-on long arm will be better at some things and worse at others in comparison to a short arm. So in reality all you’re doing is compromising and trading one thing for another.
But to buy a bolt-on long arm lift kit for a TJ (i.e. Rubicon Express, Rough Country, Metalcloak, etc.) and assume it is better than a good short arm lift, that is completely inaccurate.
The problem as discussed many times with all these long arm bolt-on kits is that they simply can not be packaged on such a way that makes it a good idea.
Now if you want to talk about cutting, welding, and a lot of fabrication in regards to installing a long arm, well then that is another story. That of course is what the KOH guys are doing.
But at that point you can call the arm whatever you want. Is it really a long arm on a KOH rig? Because that would suggest there was something there to compare it to begin with, such as a shorter arm.
I now understand why Blaine called his Savvy mid-arm design a “mid-arm”.
@Jerry Bransford can we please ban @Jerry Bransford from posting this pic anymore. He's posted it twice in the same thread. And although its highly relevant to this discussion, posting it twice doesn't make it any more relevant than the Rubicon Express sticker that attached to it.
If there's no difference in ride quality, handling or performance between *factory length arms* and *longer than factory length control arms*, why desperately want one? Just buy the shocks, it will be the same right?
These cars are build CAD starting with the suspension, then they make everything else fit around it. TJ's have to work with the constraints of what jeep gave us. Compromises will be made
Yeah, you really can’t compare the two at all. And as I mentioned above, you can call the arm whatever you want on a KOH rig. Calling it a long arm and then somehow comparing that to long arms in how they relate to TJs makes zero sense whatsoever.
Chris, good question.
I define long arm as being any suspension that has arms longer than stock.
From a suspension design stand point the instant center of a longer arm suspension is more controllable than a the factory the length suspension arm design. The factory design arm length at factory ride height keeps the instant center below the vehicle center of gravity. When adding lift to a stock design the instant center quickly start to be located above the center of gravity of the vehicle. Thus the short arm lifted TJ or LJ suspension dynamics become unpredictable.
But like everything in suspension design there are compromises. What works for my intended use may not work for you.
To put that in perspective, the Savvy Mid Arm is the kit version of the mid arm suspension John and Gerald kicked everyone's ass with on their TJ Unlimited. To be more in perspective, lets keep the discussion to the EMC stock class vehicles which is more appropriate. In that class, J&G won so much they were asked to get out of the class and move up to stock mod and in that class, they are still the winningest team competing, past or present.
As for the Bomber, put the stock TJ 4.0 in one and it won't even make a good trail rig. The chassis, suspension, and drivetrain are all designed and built to work as a system with a high horsepower motor to bounce it over rocks and pull the front up to skip across the top of big chop and whoops.
His definition of "longer than stock" would include something like the Rough Country long arm which has both frame ends of the rear arms sharing the same bolt. But hey, they are longer than stock, right?
No one, least of all me, said the mid-arm suspension had no difference handling or performance. Ride quality is one thing, handling and performance on the trail is quite another. And it's not just arm length that makes the Savvy mid-arm suspension work so superbly, that would be too simple and anyone could do it. It's mainly about its geometry.
If that were true, then by extrapolation more flatterer equals more betterer. Go ahead and move your front lowers up behind the axle tube and let me know how that works for you.