A theory: improper wheel balancing due to temporary flat spotting
- Thread starter Vtx531
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The Pueblo, CO location may just be really well managed. As long as I made an appointment my vehicle never Dat more than 20 minutes before they brought it in.
I haven't had that experience at every location, but maybe 50/50.
No improvement on results from conventional cheaper methods. The very best balance ever received on my 35's was from an old 50's or 60's vintage machine run by a guy who was simply good at his job.
I sincerely doubt that "flat spotting" while waiting to have your tires balanced is the contributing factor to your imbalance problem. If that was the case there wouldn't be a car on the road that had a smooth running tire.
If someone really wants to know how Road Force balancers work I could explain but very few vehicles will ever see a real benefit from road force matching and balancing. When Les Schwab started using them I was one of the first 5 people at the store I worked at to be trained how to use them and we "warrantied" a LOT of 8 and 10 ply light truck tires due to hard spots in casings, very rarely did we ever warranty a passenger rated or 6 ply rated tire.
If someone really wants to know how Road Force balancers work I could explain but very few vehicles will ever see a real benefit from road force matching and balancing. When Les Schwab started using them I was one of the first 5 people at the store I worked at to be trained how to use them and we "warrantied" a LOT of 8 and 10 ply light truck tires due to hard spots in casings, very rarely did we ever warranty a passenger rated or 6 ply rated tire.
Road Force Balancing or Force Matching works on some tires under some circumstances. If you have a tire which has a high spot on it and a wheel which has a low spot you can sometimes match the high and the low spot up to compensate but you don't always have good outcomes it varies per procedure.
Bighammer
TJ Enthusiast
Wouldn’t a ‘flat spot’ on a tire get rolled out after just a few revolutions? For example driving across the parking lot? I’m not a tire guy, but just wondering
When I drove a milk truck about 3 decades ago we ran bias ply tires, they would get a serious flat spot that would probably let go after several miles
When I drove a milk truck about 3 decades ago we ran bias ply tires, they would get a serious flat spot that would probably let go after several miles
If I don't drive my LJ for several days I can go about a mile before I can't feel the flat spots anymore. Earlier if it's hot out, but longer if it's real cold.
Except for new cars, cars with new tires, cars that never get their tires rebalanced.
Of the ones left remaining (cars with tires that have been rebalanced), some of the drivers are probably insensitive to vibrations. Of those that are sensitive, some of them probably don't do enough freeway driving to make a big deal out of it. The small percentage of people left are the people that go online and complain about X tire store or brand X tires not being able to balance.
Still not going to agree with that. I worked in the tire business for a combined total of about 10 years and very seldom did I ever have a customer come back in with complaints of tire vibrations after switching from winter to summer and vice versa or for any other tire related reason. So that negates the only with new tire concept. Some drivers are more sensitive to the ride quality of their vehicle, some are oblivious, some cars (GM trucks) are more prone to transferring vibrations through to the driver better than others.Except for new cars, cars with new tires, cars that never get their tires rebalanced.
Of the ones left remaining (cars with tires that have been rebalanced), some of the drivers are probably insensitive to vibrations. Of those that are sensitive, some of them probably don't do enough freeway driving to make a big deal out of it. The small percentage of people left are the people that go online and complain about X tire store or brand X tires not being able to balance.
I can guarantee that 99% of drivers out there in any given vehicle will never be able to notice a half ounce imbalance in a tire. If a tire tech can't get a tire to balance out to within a quarter of an ounce then there are a few possible scenarios, the tire machine is WAY out of calibration (not uncommon in smaller shops), the tire tech doesn't have a clue what they are doing, there is so much distortion in the wheel that the balancer can not compensate to give accurate readings (I have personally dealt with that numerous times).
Like I said flat spotting isn't a problem when having your tires rebalanced if you are running proper tire pressures and you have driven far enough to eliminate any noticeable vibration from cold weather flat spots.. For vehicles with larger tires (say for example Jeeps) that run well below "factory" recommended tire pressures, I suggest that when you do take your vehicle in to have tires rebalanced and they may sit for an extended period of time, go for a drive to warm them up, then air them up to the max inflation pressure of the tire, then drive them a short distance to the tire shop. That will minimize any flat spotting to the extent that there is a minimal amount of "out of round", that should eliminate any preconceived notion that it might be an issue.
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I would point out that switching from winter tires to summer tires would not have flat spots because they are coming off the shelf and onto the car.
Either way, I think you are right that it probably doesn't matter.
Flat spot affected about 25% of the circumference of the tire. Tire weighs 21.3lb. Even if 25% of the entire weight was moved .030" that would be 2.34oz-inch which is equivalent to just over .25oz where the weights would be placed. Not much.
Maybe if the blind or rounding function of the balancer happened to stack up with the flat spot...could be up to .5oz off. There is ~ 70% chance that at least one of the four tires have the spots stack up in the same quadrant and all it would take is one tire.
Either way, I think you are right that it probably doesn't matter.
Flat spot affected about 25% of the circumference of the tire. Tire weighs 21.3lb. Even if 25% of the entire weight was moved .030" that would be 2.34oz-inch which is equivalent to just over .25oz where the weights would be placed. Not much.
Maybe if the blind or rounding function of the balancer happened to stack up with the flat spot...could be up to .5oz off. There is ~ 70% chance that at least one of the four tires have the spots stack up in the same quadrant and all it would take is one tire.
At the deepest part of the flat spot, you measured .059", and it tapers back out to original circumference from there. That wont change the centrifugal force substantially enough for any balancer to sense a weight imbalance.
A Road Force balancer could potentially sense a discrepancy in the casing of a tire that has an indent (flat spot) from sitting in one spot too long, which is one reason people who use those balancers should be trained on their proper use. The store policy at the Les Schwab I worked at was to test drive every car that was having tires balanced using the RFb, at least a 10 mile trip up and back the highway, that way we knew the tires were warmed up.
Bighammer
TJ Enthusiast
It’s nothing new, people have been doing it for many years now. I’m just the first person I know that left the traditional lead weights on as well and have had great success.
The trucking industry has been using balance beads for a long time vs trying to add metal weights to the rims. it helps with radial balance but not so much with dynamic.
Here's a decent rite up done on "Dyna Beads" which is essentially the same as BBs.
https://www.rideapart.com/reviews/254107/dyna-beads-miracle-balancing-cure-or-tire-snake-oil/
Bighammer
TJ Enthusiast
So 2 0z per tire and it will help with the balancing? Would a person add them to new tires as well?
Bighammer
TJ Enthusiast
Found this: https://www.innovativebalancing.com/
Mudders, Rock Crawlers and Oversize Tire Owners need Dyna Beads®!
We have a special chart for the owners of large, aggressive-tread tires similar to those produced by Michelin, Continental, Interco, BFGoodrich, Mickey Thompson and Toyo, among others.
Your unique and specialized-function tires and Dyna Beads make an ideal team!
Mudders, Rock Crawlers and Oversize Tire Owners need Dyna Beads®!
We have a special chart for the owners of large, aggressive-tread tires similar to those produced by Michelin, Continental, Interco, BFGoodrich, Mickey Thompson and Toyo, among others.
Your unique and specialized-function tires and Dyna Beads make an ideal team!
- Special Off Road beads for superior performance in large, aggressive tires.
- No need to mess around with "balance patches", which are only accurate at the time of installation and a pain to install.
- Wheel weights, regardless of type, are inefficient for balancing these tires, due to the distance from the outside of the tire to the rim, not to mention how it looks to have 3 lbs of wheel weights hanging on your rim.
- These aggressive, oversize tires change their balance requirements quickly throughout their life, making static balancing solutions like wheel weights and balance patches ineffective.
- Mud and snow collection can quickly affect wheel balance. Dyna Beads® will quickly move to rebalance this temporary condition.
- Dyna Beads are the ideal balancing compound for your tires. Easy to install, extremely efficient, won't rust, perfectly round, solid ceramic, and always working to balance your tires every time you drive. If your tire slips on the rim, the beads will adjust and compensate automatically.
They do work but they are limited in what they can do. I linked an article a couple posts back that hits on the drawbacks and benefits.
They will balance a tire/wheel assembly for bounce, but not wobble. So radial balance yes, lateral balance no.
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