So much yammering in the original post and it’s as if the TJ gearbox was not actually considered or look at at all before this post was made. You can’t have the gearbox centered and the pitman arm directly perpendicular to the front axle. You can’t just pop the pitman arm and turn it 1 spline either.
Steering wheel center and toe adjustment
- Thread starter OldGuyOldJeep
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OP
Yes clocking was generic. But watch your that part only had to do with both having it aligned properly awhile still having a centered wheel. But not to complicate it forget steering shaft up. If you use the drag link to center the wheel you are in fact changing the pitman arm position in relation to the wheels. When centered both wheels should be straight, except toe, and pitman straight back. To prevent excessive wear on pump and gearbox. Since the pitman and steering wheel are locked together moving one moves both; hence, using the drag link to adjust steering wheel takes it out of alignment. The overall toe is the same but the hydraulic pressure is no longer on full bypass loop, and your input to output arc is in mid decline in one direction and increasing until it hits center on the other side. So at center you have the hydraulic pressure slightly applied to one side and and a different in the turning arc. This causes the extra play in the wheel.
Please, this is not kindergarten so please stop assuming we're all inept on how to align our TJs. There are several threads and a FAQ in this forum that show how to correctly align our Jeeps that are far easier to understand. Steering shaft setup is not as your "generic" description described, generic information is not all that useful here as it is often incorrect as you learned. And while we know your original post was 100% well intentioned, most of us here know more about this process than you assume. There is more expertise within this forum than you realize or want to believe.
Maybe 2nd grade. It still takes me a few tries to get the drag link adjusted and the steering wheel in the right spot.
OP
Well I haven’t seen these threads. Every time I see one it says to use the drag link to center the steering wheel witch at first glance would seem to to be correct but is not. Frankly if you do it correctly then you’re one of the few. Judging by you trolling tone and lack of concern about static hydraulic pressure on a semi hermetic hydraulic looped system , I would assume your one of then many who do it incorrectly and think they are right. Then blame cheap rebuilt steering gear box’s for them failing.
The order has always been track bar, tie rod and then drag link. There has never been any adjustment to make on the pitman arm beyond getting it in the correct keyway for those who had reason to remove it.
Thanks, but I'll stick with the correct methods of setting toe and setting my steering wheel straight.
Here's the alignment FAQ, it works very well. It has been in many forums over many years and works entirely well for us TJ owners. Don't be so quick to slam people you don't know or the well-proven ways of doing things like a basic front-end alignment on a TJ.
https://wranglertjforum.com/threads/how-to-align-your-jeep-wrangler-tj.85/
And keep in mind that the length and number of words used in a post has no direct relationship to its accuracy, helpfulness, or how well it will be received.
That is correct and as I remembered, it is back and to the left side. We always somewhat call it 1 o:clock but not quite but mostly as a reminder that it is over to the right when viewed from the front. If you aren't sure looking at the pics, first is to show the steering wheel centered. Second is to show a comparison between the arm angle and the lower section of the lower steering shaft for angular reference, and last is what you see looking back from the front.
OP
yes if your steering wheel still lines up so that when it is centered, your pitman arm is directly 90 degrees perpendicular to the front axle then yes the first step is always and has always been secure the steering wheel in the center position because there is no way to center the wheel after adjusting the drag link and the tie rod. I prefer to work down the line when so is l linear and one adjustment doesn’t affect adjustment in the middle. So I do drag then tie rod. But it really doesn’t matter as the results are ultimately the same. The big issue is the drag link being used to center the wheel instead of adjusting the passenger side toe.
You can achieve the correct overall toe by simply adjusting the tire rod, however changing the drag link after achieving overall toe ( not to be cuff used with achieving driver side toe.). Would off align the combine front wheel center to the steering wheel center and that being to the gearbox center.
Hence why I do the drag link first, but if you were doing it in Chrysler order, you would secure the steering wheel to center, use the tie rod to adjust the driver side wheel to the correct toe, then drag link to adjust the passenger side wheel to the correct toe. This being properly aligned assuming that your steering wheel center is still the same as gearbox center. The whole shafts part boiled down to almost every gmc, TJ, Xj I have worked on has had some one at some point screw up the steering wheel to gearbox center points. If both are not centered at the same time you have to work your way down the steering shafts and connections until you find out why. My second point is if the gearbox’s center point is not the same as the combined front wheel center point you loose the static hydraulic pressure that is equally distributed in both sides of the turning gear. This means it feels as loose with the engine running as it does when the engine is off. This also means the gears absorb all the impact while driving instead of being buffered by hydraulic pressure. This further means people reduce the gearbox lash with just increases the impact the gears receive.
The overall all point is, to center the steering wheel the left and right toe have to set to wheel not the other way around. The easy way, drag link to center the steering wheel, just cost you extra money in long run and responsiveness in the short run.
I probably won’t bother answering anymore unless I see a reason too. I explained the best I can. I am sorry if a confused anyone. I like most engineers visualize the mechanics of it, but not so good at expressing it.
All I can suggest is forget both the misconception and what I have said, check that when your steering wheel is centered that your gearbox is centered. Strap the steering wheel dead center. Then do your alignment. Once you have both wheels correctly toed, unstrap the wheel and go for a spin. That way it’s no longer me trying to convince you the results speak for themselves.
OP
All I can suggest is forget both the misconception and what I have said, check that when your steering wheel is centered that your gearbox is centered. Strap the steering wheel dead center. Then do your alignment. Once you have both wheels correctly toed, unstrap the wheel and go for a spin. That way it’s no longer me trying to convince you the results speak for themselves.
Will you please address the fact that the TJ pitman is not square to anything?
Old_Crow
TJ Enthusiast
You're confused. The portion of the FSM that you quoted earlier says to lock the wheel straight, adjust the passenger toe with the drag link and then adjust the driver toe with the tie rod. That seems the right order to me. In fact that seems to be the method you're advocating in the above sentence. Not sure where the problem lies.
Quote from your above post:
*
SERVICE Manuel:
TOE POSITION
NOTE: The wheel toe position adjustment is the
final adjustment. This adjustment must be performed
with the engine running, if the vehicle is
equipped with power steering.
(1) Start the engine and turn wheels both ways
before straightening the steering wheel. Center and
secure the steering wheel.
(2) Loosen the adjustment sleeve clamp bolts (Fig. 3).
(3) Adjust the right wheel toe position with the drag
link (Fig. 4). Turn the sleeve until the right wheel is at
the correct positive TOE-IN position. Position the clamp
bolts as shown (Fig. 3) and tighten to 49 N·m (36 ft.
lbs.). Make sure the toe setting does not change
during clamp tightening.
(4) Adjust the left wheel toe position with the tie
rod. Turn the sleeve until the left wheel is at the
same TOE-IN position as the right wheel. Position
the clamp bolts as shown (Fig. 3) and tighten to 27
N·m (20 ft. lbs.). Make sure the toe setting does
not change during clamp tightening.
(5) Verify the right toe specifications and turn off
the engine.
It seems to me like you are doing solutions to the issues you are creating.
Drag link is the last thing i touch, and i use it specifically to center steering wheel. After initial adjustment i take it for a little drive, and it takes about one or two more adjustments to get it centered. My steering wheel is not locked, thus it has no effect on right toe. As far as pitman arm pointing directly at the axle, there is nothing i cant do about it, it is keyed to be offset towards passenger side with steering wheel centered.
If im not misunderstanding anything, you are having the same issues as i do when i zero a scope to the rifle. My brain is wired to adjust point of aim to point of impact, but some dufus has made industry standard to mark dials for adjustment of point of impact to point of aim. Issue is not in scope or its instructions, issue is in me.
OP
Well the pitman arm should be pointing straight back when the gearbox is dead center. That puts center line 90 degrees perpendicular to the font axel’s center line, or directly parallel to the frame.
If your arm isn’t straight back when steering wheel is centered that means one of two things:
1. Your overall toe measurement is good but
In reality you driver side toe is actually positive like +3.5 degrees and your passenger side toes is actually -3.6 degrees giving an overall toe in relationship to each other as -0.1. But the functional toe to gearbox center is still +3.5 band -3.6. This means to drive straight your gearbox is in a partial turn and that means your steering wheel looks centered but is in actuality at least one turn from center
This is why I hate the overall toe method like with levels. And a measuring tape. It checks toe in relationship to each other. This might improve driving but is no where near optimal. The two string method compares to the average of all 4. But still to each other. The 3 string method actually sets it by the frame. If the frame isn’t warped will be true with the centered pitman.
2.You have an issue between the gear box and the steering wheel. Usually the gear box is off by one revolution on the input shaft which puts the pitman are 8 to 12 degrees off the pointing straight back with steering wheel centered. This happens all the time when Changing gearboxes everything wasn’t at center when doing. It’s why the service manual says to straighten wheels and secure the steering wheel when changing the gearbox.
I
If your arm isn’t straight back when steering wheel is centered that means one of two things:
1. Your overall toe measurement is good but
In reality you driver side toe is actually positive like +3.5 degrees and your passenger side toes is actually -3.6 degrees giving an overall toe in relationship to each other as -0.1. But the functional toe to gearbox center is still +3.5 band -3.6. This means to drive straight your gearbox is in a partial turn and that means your steering wheel looks centered but is in actuality at least one turn from center
This is why I hate the overall toe method like with levels. And a measuring tape. It checks toe in relationship to each other. This might improve driving but is no where near optimal. The two string method compares to the average of all 4. But still to each other. The 3 string method actually sets it by the frame. If the frame isn’t warped will be true with the centered pitman.
2.You have an issue between the gear box and the steering wheel. Usually the gear box is off by one revolution on the input shaft which puts the pitman are 8 to 12 degrees off the pointing straight back with steering wheel centered. This happens all the time when Changing gearboxes everything wasn’t at center when doing. It’s why the service manual says to straighten wheels and secure the steering wheel when changing the gearbox.
I
I really wish ya'll would look at the pics and unconfuse yourself as to which way the pitman is offset.
Except that isn't where the pitman arm lands when everything is set up. This is true no matter how many words you throw at it.
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