Basket's Build

[lBasket]

Yep you've got it... I've always just made my own setup bearings so I'm sure I have more play than the ones you have but yes on the pinion setup bearings and then the carrier setup bearings that little bit of play can mess you up. I chased my tail for over a week on my rear axle a couple years ago.

Thanks for mentioning this. I'll see if I can find a machine shop to do this for me, I keep seeing this handmade "machine shop" sign on my way to some trails nearby so I'll see if I can find a number to call.

At least I can spend some time getting "close" over the weekend either way.

 

[sab]

Time to document the gear swap: amateur special!

I started disassembling the old pinion and carrier from my Dana 30. First thing I did was cutoff the old carrier and pinion bearings. The inner races will be used to press the new bearings on the new pinion and carrier.

View attachment 587746

I'm trying to keep everything labelled so I don't get confused and frustrated. Setup bearings clearly marked as well:
View attachment 587747

I have everything laid out as it comes out. Since it's my first time, I don't want to be doubting myself on how the pinion goes together or anything. Left side is the old pinion stack, and the right one is all the new stuff. You can see I have the carrier shims inside the races, labelled on paper.
View attachment 587749

Look how much smaller a 5.13 pinion is than a 3.55 one. Pretty wild.
View attachment 587751

Measured all the shims from my old setup. Yes I know I wrote "small" and "big" pinion shims like an idiot. For some reason, at the time I couldn't remember why there were two sets... Big ones are for depth, small ones are for preload.
View attachment 587752

Added them up so I have a starting point when I get to setting up the new stuff:

1. Pinion Depth: 0.0292. Old pinion has a +2 marking, and new pinion has nothing, so I'll add .002 and start at 0.0312
2. Pinion Preload: 0.0654
3. Non ring gear carrier: 0.0259
4. Ring gear carrier: 0.049

Additionally, I measured both the new and old oil slingers and oil baffles, and they bought measured out the same. So I shouldn't have to adjust for them.

Next I got to work measuring shims. The carrier came with carrier shims, and so did the install kit, so I had a whole bunch of those to measure. I wiped each individually before measuring. Whew, some of these are so thin the surface tension from the packing oil will try to bend them!

View attachment 587753

The first pinion bearing got pressed on with the oil slinger, using the inner race from the old pinion:
View attachment 587754

And the rear pinion bearing race got driven in, it should not need to come back out. Man the edges of the journal are machined sharp, careful when cleaning them out!
View attachment 587755

The last thing before I can actually start the "fun" part is setting up the carrier. I have a new 3.73+ carrier from Yukon, and will need to transfer my lunchbox locker in as well.

View attachment 587756

Unfortunately this is as far as I'm getting today. The first step of installing the lunchbox is installing the axle gears and spacers, and use a feeler gauge to measure the space between the carrier pin and the spacers. You're looking for a gap between 0.006 and 0.020. However, I was unable to get my carrier pin through the new carrier. I was kinda disappointed the new carrier didn't come with a new carrier pin - although it came with new ring gear bolts and the roll pin to lock the carrier pin.

When I was down there working, I figured I had the wrong pin. But, now that I am searching, it appears there is no separate carrier pin size for the two carrier types. So I'm thinking something else is going on. There are some threads online of opening the hole up slightly to get the pin in. I don't really mind re-using my pin if it's the right one, it doesn't have any of the wear mentioned in the Aussie locker install manual that would make you want to replace it. It can get it in the old carrier with a few taps with the hammer, definitely an interference fit but it does seem to "bottom out" trying to get it through the new one. I will likely call ECGS tomorrow and see what they think. Hoping I don't need to wait for a new part, I can start actually trying to set things up when I get this together.

One question I had if anyone knows - how do you handle the ten-thousands when measuring shims? It seems like most people are looking to the thousandths of an inch, but if you look at my shim stacks I clearly got a pile of 0.003" vs 0.0035" shims, and even stranger, I got a stack of 0.0027" shims. I even recleaned them and my mic, rezero-ed the mic, and measured multiple points thinking it was wrong, but there are more than one and they double checked out.

Great write-up, lBasket! Not bad for a self-proclaimed "reckless idiot".

 

[sab]

View attachment 587772

So the shims move the bearing in the axis of the red line... And the material shaved off the inner race will introduce play on the other two axes, drew a blue one to try to visualize. So when I start to try to measure stuff, the entire carrier will be sitting "lower" than it would with the final bearings since the slightly larger inner race opening has less thickness. I think I see what you mean. It'll barely be different but when you're measuring 0.001"...

As I said in Jeff's thread, I have yet to re-gear my LJ, so I'm not speaking from experience re-gearing here, but I'm not going to bother with setup bearings for the reason above. Like Wildman, I bought the Yukon clamshell puller, and I'll just press on/pull off repeatedly. I've learned enough from designing and working with tapered roller bearings to know that a little extra play in a tapered roller bearing has a big effect on preload. In fact, the only patent I have was a design we came up with to eliminate tapered roller bearings for that very reason.

 

[JMT]

@lBasket you’re giving me hope that I could possibly do this one day. Awesome write-up!

 

[lBasket]

Great write-up, lBasket! Not bad for a self-proclaimed "reckless idiot".

Slowly getting better about it..... slowly. But thank you!

As I said in Jeff's thread, I have yet to re-gear my LJ, so I'm not speaking from experience re-gearing here, but I'm not going to bother with setup bearings for the reason above. Like Wildman, I bought the Yukon clamshell puller, and I'll just press on/pull off repeatedly. I've learned enough from designing and working with tapered roller bearings to know that a little extra play in a tapered roller bearing has a big effect on preload. In fact, the only patent I have was a design we came up with to eliminate tapered roller bearings for that very reason.

Good point on the preload, too. I was mostly thinking about how it changes the location of things and then how the gears mesh. Luckily pinion preload isn't done until you're done with the setup bearings, but it will effect carrier preload. And that is already pretty heavy guesswork it seems like... Maybe that's another reason why you see some people suggesting to just add an even amount of shims to both sides for final assembly as well.

I'm not entirely sure how to get the preload down, a lot of what I read is to just make sure it's hard to get in there basically, something like "a few taps with a deadblow required but nothing like a 4lb sledge". But I will just start with the old setup and see how it feels and compares to videos I'm watching.

Any chance for some tapered roller bearing eliminator kits?

 

[lBasket]

@lBasket you’re giving me hope that I could possibly do this one day. Awesome write-up!

Thanks Jeremy, I'm sure you could pull it off if I you wanted to! I've watched the BFH Garage videos so many times, and have them open when I'm working there, so it's basically like having a virtual Mike there with you to help! His videos really are fantastic.

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Great to see you tackling this, Trevor. It’s a great skill to have.

One piece of advice: Since Mike has now admitted that his eyes are going bad, maybe take his pattern assessments with a grain of salt???

(Just kidding, Mike!)

 

[NashvilleTJ]

Great to see you tackling this, Trevor. It’s a great skill to have.

One piece of advice: Since Mike has now admitted that his eyes are going bad, maybe take his pattern assessments with a grain of salt???

(Just kidding, Mike!)

I can tease Mike at this point because he just blessed my current setup. Otherwise his next advise would be “You need to add a hundred thou to your pinion depth!”

And you know what? I trust Mike enough that I’d do it…

 

[lBasket]

Great to see you tackling this, Trevor. It’s a great skill to have.

One piece of advice: Since Mike has now admitted that his eyes are going bad, maybe take his pattern assessments with a grain of salt???

(Just kidding, Mike!)

Thanks!! I've always thought it was a kind of "rite of passage" in the 4x4 world to setup your own gears. So it's cool to finally be doing it.

 

[bbaldwin237]

@lBasket you’re giving me hope that I could possibly do this one day. Awesome write-up!

I'm with you! I've been tossing around the idea of "could I do my gear and locker installs?" I think even with buying setup bearings (to be sure), a press, the clamshell puller, and a few other miscellaneous tools, I could still be well under the cheapest quote I've gotten. AND I would then have the stuff for the future. He's giving me confidence (though maybe false confidence! lol).

 

[lBasket]

I'm with you! I've been tossing around the idea of "could I do my gear and locker installs?" I think even with buying setup bearings (to be sure), a press, the clamshell puller, and a few other miscellaneous tools, I could still be well under the cheapest quote I've gotten. AND I would then have the stuff for the future. He's giving me confidence (though maybe false confidence! lol).

You sure would come alot under!! I am happy to share my spreadsheet of what I've spent, I was curious what I'd save doing it myself.

Pretty cheap so far - most of the money in gears is the labor. If I had to buy another carrier for the rear that wouldve added like 70$ or so, they are pretty cheap.

I'll still have to buy gear oil, and probably add 100$ or so to get the clamshell puller machined. I didn't think I actually needed the clamshell so I picked up a knockoff for fun.

But heck I could mess this up and buy 2 new gearsets and install kits and still come out ahead (assuming non-catastrophic failure).

 

[bbaldwin237]

You sure would come alot under!! I am happy to share my spreadsheet of what I've spent, I was curious what I'd save doing it myself.

View attachment 587843

Pretty cheap so far - most of the money in gears is the labor. If I had to buy another carrier for the rear that wouldve added like 70$ or so, they are pretty cheap.

I'll still have to buy gear oil, and probably add 100$ or so to get the clamshell puller machined. I didn't think I actually needed the clamshell so I picked up a knockoff for fun.

But heck I could mess this up and buy 2 new gearsets and install kits and still come out ahead (assuming non-catastrophic failure).

Ooh, detailed spreadsheets, I like it! Cheapest quote I've had is $800 per axle, so $1600 is a lot of tools. And I wouldn't necessarily be in any rush. My wife can just park her car outside and the Jeep is an extra vehicle, so it isn't "needed." So if I worked on it a little at a time, I could chip away at it. And if I get frustrated, I can just go inside and call it a day. Or post pictures and questions on here until someone more experienced can set me straight! lol

Edit: that includes installing and plumbing ARBs (just to the housing), not just gear swap

 

[lBasket]

Ooh, detailed spreadsheets, I like it! Cheapest quote I've had is $800 per axle, so $1600 is a lot of tools. And I wouldn't necessarily be in any rush. My wife can just park her car outside and the Jeep is an extra vehicle, so it isn't "needed." So if I worked on it a little at a time, I could chip away at it. And if I get frustrated, I can just go inside and call it a day. Or post pictures and questions on here until someone more experienced can set me straight! lol

That's a decent price, I was quoted a bit more than that out here in 2021 when I called around for quotes. I'm sure it's more now.

I'm not sure how useful most of this precision measuring equipment will be in the future honestly but an excuse to buy a press is awesome.

And I think you've got the right idea. Everyone just says to stay organized and patient and it shouldn't be a bad job. I'm probably like 12 hours in (not including pulling axle) so far and I haven't even ran a single pattern yet - but I have multiple months to get it done so I am okay with it. Although I don't expect it to take quite that long. Just taking my time to understand what I'm doing and why and trying not to make any expensive mistakes (they'll cost more time than money bearings aren't all that expensive)

 

[JMT]

I'm with you! I've been tossing around the idea of "could I do my gear and locker installs?" I think even with buying setup bearings (to be sure), a press, the clamshell puller, and a few other miscellaneous tools, I could still be well under the cheapest quote I've gotten. AND I would then have the stuff for the future. He's giving me confidence (though maybe false confidence! lol).

My thought has been to find a desirable axle on Marketplace and that way I can have time to do it on the bench. Then find another axle and do it, then swap it all in. Question is, what axles? What width? What tire size? How much stretch?

 

[Apparition]

My thought has been to find a desirable axle on Marketplace and that way I can have time to do it on the bench. Then find another axle and do it, then swap it all in. Question is, what axles? What width? What tire size? How much stretch?

"Tonz and Fodeez" - Jeff

 

[lBasket]

My thought has been to find a desirable axle on Marketplace and that way I can have time to do it on the bench. Then find another axle and do it, then swap it all in. Question is, what axles? What width? What tire size? How much stretch?

Luckily (unluckily?) I already had the axles I wanted, with the high pinion 30. I am unconvinced I need to spend the 2-4k on Dana 44s for 35s instead of the 30 spline chromoly shafts, we'll see if I regret that.

I am kinda cheap but, my thought process was kinda "either go to tons and 40s or build what you have". Even if I decide to go down that route it will be long enough this won't be a waste, in my mind

 

[bbaldwin237]

My thought has been to find a desirable axle on Marketplace and that way I can have time to do it on the bench. Then find another axle and do it, then swap it all in. Question is, what axles? What width? What tire size? How much stretch?

That's a slippery slope!

I tried to talk my wife into something similar recently. It went like this:
Me: I know you're going to say no, but I have to ask.
Wife: You're not buying a different Jeep.
M: Not a different Jeep, another Jeep.
W: Absolutely not.
M: But it has the axles already built like I want, steering, compressor, the perfect wheels (ATX slabs), good 35's, a winch, bumpers, and more that I want. I would just swap parts then sell the other one. I would come out way ahead on overall cost once I sold the other for $xxxx.
W: No.


At least I tried

 

[NashvilleTJ]

...

I'll still have to buy gear oil, and probably add 100$ or so to get the clamshell puller machined. I didn't think I actually needed the clamshell so I picked up a knockoff for fun.

...

Trev - How much do you need to take off of the puller piece? The thing looks like a donut, right? If you could find a way to chuck it into a drill to slowly rotate it, and then use an angle grinder with a course flap disk on the edge as it rotates in the drill, that may be a way to do it for free.

Anyone here on the forum have access to a metal lathe which could do it? Shipping that small piece back and forth would be fairly cheap, may be another possible route.

 

[JMT]

That's a slippery slope!

I tried to talk my wife into something similar recently. It went like this:
Me: I know you're going to say no, but I have to ask.
Wife: You're not buying a different Jeep.
M: Not a different Jeep, another Jeep.
W: Absolutely not.
M: But it has the axles already built like I want, steering, compressor, the perfect wheels (ATX slabs), good 35's, a winch, bumpers, and more that I want. I would just swap parts then sell the other one. I would come out way ahead on overall cost once I sold the other for $xxxx.
W: No.


At least I tried

I bought a stock TJR for $12k about 2.5 yrs ago, put some elbow grease into it, and sold it for $17.8k 3 months later. It was just in such nice condition. Everything worked. I fell in love with little things like the rearview mirror with compass and temp and the working center console sub. I still wonder if I should have kept it. My wife trusts me when I say, “This is a really good deal.” Now I’m looking at an LS swapped rig with low key but functional mods that’s only $13k

 

[lBasket]

Trev - How much do you need to take off of the puller piece? The thing looks like a donut, right? If you could find a way to chuck it into a drill to slowly rotate it, and then use an angle grinder with a course flap disk on the edge as it rotates in the drill, that may be a way to do it for free.

Anyone here on the forum have access to a metal lathe which could do it? Shipping that small piece back and forth would be fairly cheap, may be another possible route.

I took some pics to better show what it needs. So this is how you use it to pull a carrier bearing:

But the black piece, not sure the names of all these pieces, stops right there. There is a lip inside that it stops at, but the problem I think is the OD of the silver plug not the ID of the sleeve, since the sleeve only has so much material.

So it looks like just this section needs to be turned down (made smaller? Is that correct machinist lingo?):

I don't know how much it needs removed, not sure how to measure that far in the sleeve with my calipers, but it can't be much, a few mm at most.

I didn't really give much thought into fabricobbling a way to reduce it myself. It isn't like it is that important for it to stay perfectly round or even honestly, it just needs to fit and push against the journal/screw press portion. I'll have to think about this I wonder if I have anything that would clamp around it and also fit in a drill chuck.

Edit - went to find the machine shop I was thinking about. He recently updated his website saying he is moving away from public work and making custom high volume parts. Seems like the regular story, so coming up with my own way is probably the only option.