If you are adjusting an arm and it is too hard to turn by hand to the point you need to put a tool on it to turn it, you have other concerns at hand. I'm inclined to believe the Savvy arms aren't notched/hexed for a reason.
Duroflex vs Johnny Joints...again
- Thread starter nondem
- Start date
Knew what it was without clicking.
Then i giggled, what if i am wrong? I giggled more as curiosity got a hold of me...
I clicked, i loled, i fucking knew it... lol
1. On road manors. JJ felt tighter and more controlled but only slightly. We are talking JJ short arm TJ vs MC long arm LJ. Mostly talking over bumps at speed, or a quick lane change. Not a real scientific comparison, but I used my butt-o-meter and the TJ was crisp, the LJ feel a little floppy. Could just be the Antirock front and rear on the LJ.
2. In the JJ the ball is free to move around without restriction (Probably the biggest advantage). MC relies on the bushing to rotate in the housing. Once the grease dries up it binds and wears the bushing out.
3. JJ are pretty much bullet proof and when they start making noise, you disassemble and add a little grease. MC joints will begin to crack as the rubber deteriorates and will need new bushings installed. Even if you are on top of maintenance rubber only lasts so long. The plastic races in the JJ seems to live a long long life.
4. Both are pretty much a pain in the ass to service. Remove joints, disassemble, grease, reassemble, reinstall. JJ maybe more since its under tension and requires specials tools, or a home made tool or press and creativity.
I bought a Jeep with pretty much the whole MC catalog on it. IMHO its not that their stuff is bad, its just overhyped and they have a pretty good marketing team pushing it online and on social media. There are also a lot of keyboard warriors online who just wanna bash your rig and your parts. I have to say, my experience with MC customer service has been amazing. Anyone ever talk about CS from some of the most touted brands on here? Nope.... lucky if you get them to answer the phone.
I was missing some bolts in my armor, keep in mind I didn't even buy it. It was installed by the PO. MC shipped me what I needed free of charge and was happy to do it. Another time I was being a dumbass and pounding a ledge I "thought" I should be able to get up. I am talking, braking with throttle to bring in the boost on the supercharger and full send it. I bent both my front lower links where they screw into the lower arms. They sent me two new ones with longer threads to try and said if it happens again to call back. We never see that happen, but here's some free parts to try out. Called the other day to check stock on a slim crawler rear bumper. They said they have some in power coating and its 2-3 weeks, but how about 10% off if you order one? Sold, send it to me.
That being said I bought my Jeep with a vision of what I wanted it to be. I got it for a reasonable price considering the parts it had on it. I plan to replace some of them and build it into what I want it to be in time. In the mean time its more capable than I am most of the time, and when I am ready, and can afford to dump $30k into, we will go to the next level, or maybe skip a few and go nuts. So far I am really enjoying the MC LJ. I did peel all there stickers though. You don't don't get stickers on my rig unless the parts are discounted or free. So far I have a BFG sticker on both fenders
True, but what if other concerns are there?
Say you have one end that seized, for what ever reason, mud, salt, time, hurricane flood ... what ever, would you not wish you had that damn hex shape you could apply wrench to?
If tube thickness is the same, notches are extra material around the tube, if anything they add more strength. Thus what you believe is difficult to follow.
I will +1 MC costumer support
Had issue once with C clip falling out on two control arms. Gave them a call, they answered, i stated my issue and they were ready to ship me a replacement. It was a busy day for me, i had to drop that call and call them again next morning. They made a note, next morning they knew who i was and what my issue was. Bam bam done!
One time i was placing order, with shipping and billing address being different. Half way through the day i get a call, "Hey bud, we noticed you have two different addresses going on here, what up?", I explained the circumstance and it was done. Guy even went through my orders, noticed that i used military discount some time ago, and reapplied to my order on top of sale they had going on.
If it is a place to shit, i will take a dump with joy. However, where credit is due, credit is due.
i pegged and messed with both joints side by side.......what i think i know is.
the JJ is a barreled ball held by 2 poly sockets...the MC joint is a barreled ball surrounded in a rubber compound.
the JJ moved about 16* while the MC joint got 17*.
the JJ moves freely and will sit neutral in any position while the MC has to bend the rubber and it takes about 15-17ft# to hold it at it's max angle.
the JJ can wear out but an MC joint can rip apart if they aren't kept lubed.
i have questions about a compound that takes 17# to bend .........like how does my bushing stay centered with the weight of a jeep on it.
the JJ is a barreled ball held by 2 poly sockets...the MC joint is a barreled ball surrounded in a rubber compound.
the JJ moved about 16* while the MC joint got 17*.
the JJ moves freely and will sit neutral in any position while the MC has to bend the rubber and it takes about 15-17ft# to hold it at it's max angle.
the JJ can wear out but an MC joint can rip apart if they aren't kept lubed.
i have questions about a compound that takes 17# to bend .........like how does my bushing stay centered with the weight of a jeep on it.
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1. On road manors. JJ felt tighter and more controlled but only slightly. We are talking JJ short arm TJ vs MC long arm LJ. Mostly talking over bumps at speed, or a quick lane change. Not a real scientific comparison, but I used my butt-o-meter and the TJ was crisp, the LJ feel a little floppy. Could just be the Antirock front and rear on the LJ.
2. In the JJ the ball is free to move around without restriction (Probably the biggest advantage). MC relies on the bushing to rotate in the housing. Once the grease dries up it binds and wears the bushing out.
3. JJ are pretty much bullet proof and when they start making noise, you disassemble and add a little grease. MC joints will begin to crack as the rubber deteriorates and will need new bushings installed. Even if you are on top of maintenance rubber only lasts so long. The plastic races in the JJ seems to live a long long life.
4. Both are pretty much a pain in the ass to service. Remove joints, disassemble, grease, reassemble, reinstall. JJ maybe more since its under tension and requires specials tools, or a home made tool or press and creativity.
I bought a Jeep with pretty much the whole MC catalog on it. IMHO its not that their stuff is bad, its just overhyped and they have a pretty good marketing team pushing it online and on social media. There are also a lot of keyboard warriors online who just wanna bash your rig and your parts. I have to say, my experience with MC customer service has been amazing. Anyone ever talk about CS from some of the most touted brands on here? Nope.... lucky if you get them to answer the phone.
I was missing some bolts in my armor, keep in mind I didn't even buy it. It was installed by the PO. MC shipped me what I needed free of charge and was happy to do it. Another time I was being a dumbass and pounding a ledge I "thought" I should be able to get up. I am talking, braking with throttle to bring in the boost on the supercharger and full send it. I bent both my front lower links where they screw into the lower arms. They sent me two new ones with longer threads to try and said if it happens again to call back. We never see that happen, but here's some free parts to try out. Called the other day to check stock on a slim crawler rear bumper. They said they have some in power coating and its 2-3 weeks, but how about 10% off if you order one? Sold, send it to me.
That being said I bought my Jeep with a vision of what I wanted it to be. I got it for a reasonable price considering the parts it had on it. I plan to replace some of them and build it into what I want it to be in time. In the mean time its more capable than I am most of the time, and when I am ready, and can afford to dump $30k into, we will go to the next level, or maybe skip a few and go nuts. So far I am really enjoying the MC LJ. I did peel all there stickers though. You don't don't get stickers on my rig unless the parts are discounted or free. So far I have a BFG sticker on both fenders
Having messed with each also, I'm curious about the installation of these. For the MC joints, I had to do nothing to center them during the installation, but ensure the joint was parallel with the mount (i.e. the barrel self centered). During the installation of the JJ's, I had to manually center the barreled ball at ride height, to ensure they were in a neutral resting position. I'm not sure if this was something I needed to do, but it just sort of made sense. Did I overthink this? To be clear, I'm not saying the MC joint is better because of this, because it isn't. I'm simply curious!
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That's what antiseize is for.
Savvy used to have wrench flats until people started cranking one arm to adjust it. This would load up one set of joints create premature wear across several joints.
Bottom line is that is if the loosened arms don't turn by hand when adjusting, something is wrong. This is true of any and all types of double adjustable control arms. Even MC.
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JJs don't have a neutral resting position. What they (and any other joint) needs is to remain parallel with the other joint on the arm.
With a JJ or any rod end style joint, the joints on either end of the arm need to be rolled against the mount while tightening. This ensures that the arm has full range of motion within the mounts.
Bushing style arms like MC don't like to remain in a state of misalignment, creating premature wear. And because they can't be rolled and tightened like a JJ, extra care ought to be taken to make sure the arm doesn't get twisted and loaded during the tightening process.
So at ride height it doesn't matter if the jj housing is perpendicular with the barrel? And, it's okay for one side to be say 15 degrees off center, as long as the front and rear (on the same arm) are in the same relative position? Just, making sure I understand what you're saying!
The JJ arm will roll side to side within the mounts as the suspension moves throughout the day. There is no return to center. There is no neutral position. All that matters is that the joints are parallel to each on the arm.
Think this through and you start to see the advantages of a control arm joint that doesn't rely on elasticity to provide it's misalignment capabilities. A pair of JJs can be a bit out of parallel and it doesn't matter as long as there is sufficient range of motion within the mounts. Do that on a elastic bushing like MC, and it will wear out sooner than it should.
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Thanks, it's a little counter intuitive, but I get what you're saying. They will move with the vehicle, provided the front and rear joint on each arm is positioned in parallel with each other.
How do you tighten the jam nuts on the Savvy arms if there's no flats on the sleeve to hold it in position to keep the opposite joint from getting skewed/rotated during tightening? Do you put a wrench on the other jam nut and hope they both get tightened equally?
(I have no dog in this fight, just genuinely curious.)
(I have no dog in this fight, just genuinely curious.)
I challenged logic of post #41 with a hypothetical scenario
You said exactly the same thing (in my eyes) as he did.
Antiseize is irrelevant variable, if it was there, my scenario would not exist.
Savvy used to having something and then removing it because people don't know any better, or lack of instructions, is a separate issue which explains why they don't any more.
At very least, hex shape is a comfort feature that is very useful for when situation ask for it.
Save machining? Cost savings?
There aren't many vehicles that I encounter that can be hand adjusted or disassembled after simply loosening a nut or bolt.
There are times when the hex shape is not beneficial. One consistent thing I've noticed about them is rocks tend to dig into the sharp edges on a hex bar far more than a round one. I routinely have to take a flap disk to the hex arms on my LJ, to smooth out the sharp edged gouges created.
^This cracks me up. On one hand MC's claims are considered hype. But playtime zerks for "marketing purposes" is passed off as a needed angle.
Roll one joint to the side of the mount and tighten it. Roll both joints to the other side of the mount and tighten the other. Use a small pry bar to move things around.
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