Do-anything LJ build advice

[Mike_H]

Just my 0.02 here. I have driven race cars. They are set up so you can move your feet just enough to move the pedals and move your arms just enough to steer and shift. Beyond that, you don’t move. The seats are tight, and you snug the harness down until it hurts. Then you get your head restraint.

You do that to make sure that your body stays in the car at speed, and that you soft stuff isn’t bouncing off hard stuff like tubes, chassis, and dashboards. About the worst thing I can think of, is strapping in too that extent to go get ice cream.

So now that we’ve established we’re not going to strap in and become unified with the seat…you want to add a bunch of steel tubing all over the place, so in the event of an accident your soft parts can crash into the hard parts? Nope, not me. If I roll my Jeep over badly enough that I damage the factory cage and windshield, I will gladly take the insurance payout and get a new one or rebuild. I don’t believe you are going to be any safer with any of the add on “cages” than you are with the factory stuff.

Another thought to ponder. Jeep had to pass crash test criteria and some of that includes roll over. Do you think Gen-right or smitty bilt is doing any crash testing? They are not, because if they did, the price of the cage would be so high they’d never sell another.

 

[Brianj5600]

It has been a while since I bought 5 point harness belts, but there were none dot approved.

 

[jjvw]

It has been a while since I bought 5 point harness belts, but there were none dot approved.

Not DOT approved similar to beadlocks not DOT approved?

 

[D's Jeep Wrld]

Just my 0.02 here. I have driven race cars. They are set up so you can move your feet just enough to move the pedals and move your arms just enough to steer and shift. Beyond that, you don’t move. The seats are tight, and you snug the harness down until it hurts. Then you get your head restraint.

You do that to make sure that your body stays in the car at speed, and that you soft stuff isn’t bouncing off hard stuff like tubes, chassis, and dashboards. About the worst thing I can think of, is strapping in too that extent to go get ice cream.

So now that we’ve established we’re not going to strap in and become unified with the seat…you want to add a bunch of steel tubing all over the place, so in the event of an accident your soft parts can crash into the hard parts? Nope, not me. If I roll my Jeep over badly enough that I damage the factory cage and windshield, I will gladly take the insurance payout and get a new one or rebuild. I don’t believe you are going to be any safer with any of the add on “cages” than you are with the factory stuff.

Another thought to ponder. Jeep had to pass crash test criteria and some of that includes roll over. Do you think Gen-right or smitty bilt is doing any crash testing? They are not, because if they did, the price of the cage would be so high they’d never sell another.

Amen enough said to solve my question/concern,thank you sir!
As well thank you for cutting straight go the chase too!

Option D: The drive home on someone else's 21st birthday.

Option E buy a DeLorean and time travel Cant forget the Flux capacitor

 

[PNW_LJ]

Just my 0.02 here. I have driven race cars. They are set up so you can move your feet just enough to move the pedals and move your arms just enough to steer and shift. Beyond that, you don’t move. The seats are tight, and you snug the harness down until it hurts. Then you get your head restraint.

You do that to make sure that your body stays in the car at speed, and that you soft stuff isn’t bouncing off hard stuff like tubes, chassis, and dashboards. About the worst thing I can think of, is strapping in too that extent to go get ice cream.

So now that we’ve established we’re not going to strap in and become unified with the seat…you want to add a bunch of steel tubing all over the place, so in the event of an accident your soft parts can crash into the hard parts? Nope, not me. If I roll my Jeep over badly enough that I damage the factory cage and windshield, I will gladly take the insurance payout and get a new one or rebuild. I don’t believe you are going to be any safer with any of the add on “cages” than you are with the factory stuff.

Another thought to ponder. Jeep had to pass crash test criteria and some of that includes roll over. Do you think Gen-right or smitty bilt is doing any crash testing? They are not, because if they did, the price of the cage would be so high they’d never sell another.

Okay, let's consider another thing. Do we think an aftermarket roll cage helps the Jeep walk away from a rollover with less damage than stock?

Thinking in terms of the windshield area always getting crushed in a stock cage, but not so with a different cage. And how about those frame tie-in kits? Wondering if they add any structural rigidity to prevent frame bending during a rollover.

 

[Blackjack]

Okay, let's consider another thing. Do we think an aftermarket roll cage helps the Jeep walk away from a rollover with less damage than stock?

Thinking in terms of the windshield area always getting crushed in a stock cage, but not so with a different cage. And how about those frame tie-in kits? Wondering if they add any structural rigidity to prevent frame bending during a rollover.

A roll cages primary job is help the occupants walk away from an accident not the vehicle it is attached to. Most aftermarket components are going to leave something on the table and that may or not be important depending on the particular situation you are in at that moment.

 

[jjvw]

Okay, let's consider another thing. Do we think an aftermarket roll cage helps the Jeep walk away from a rollover with less damage than stock?

Thinking in terms of the windshield area always getting crushed in a stock cage, but not so with a different cage. And how about those frame tie-in kits? Wondering if they add any structural rigidity to prevent frame bending during a rollover.

Any cage design that could protect the windshield is also a cage that increases the physicality of the Jeep. Any Jeep that might benefit from not destroying the windshield is also a Jeep that would benefit from not adding to it's physical profile to snag on things. Meaning this cage is more trouble than it is worth and this cage creates more problems than it solves.

A comparison might be some of these bulky rock sliders with big tubes sticking down and out from them that catch more things now than before. Whereas a low profile mini boatside slider adds strength to the body and also reduces the bulk of the Jeep to the point that the slider may not be relied upon as often as a fatter slider would because it isn't getting in it's own way.

If you are concerned that much about the windshield, fold it down. Or better yet, remove it.

 

[Apparition]

Any cage design that could protect the windshield is also a cage that increases the physicality of the Jeep. Any Jeep that might benefit from not destroying the windshield is also a Jeep that would benefit from not adding to it's physical profile to snag on things. Meaning this cage is more trouble than it is worth and this cage creates more problems than it solves.

A comparison might be some of these bulky rock sliders with big tubes sticking down and out from them that catch more things now than before. Whereas a low profile mini boatside slider adds strength to the body and also reduces the bulk of the Jeep to the point that the slider may not be relied upon as often as a fatter slider would because it isn't getting in it's own way.

If you are concerned that much about the windshield, fold it down. Or better yet, remove it.

The JK gear and gadgets guy, on YouTube, is building a JK for KoH. His last episode was him starting the cage. He specifically said the windshield frame would be removed for the race.

 

[starkey480]

If you are concerned that much about the windshield, fold it down. Or better yet, remove it.

Doesn’t the windshield frame play a safety role in the stock sport cage though? If you remove that then you only have a B pillar with cross tube

 

[jjvw]

Doesn’t the windshield frame play a roll in the stock sport cage though? If you remove that then you only have a B pillar with cross tube

The windshield glass and frame together as a unit is structural.

 

[starkey480]

The windshield glass and frame together as a unit is structural.

Right so folding it down in a stock application is a safety no go

 

[jjvw]

Right so folding it down in a stock application is a safety no go

Quite likely. But build in a race approved cage with all the accoutrements that make the Jeep obnoxious to use as a grocery getter, and the crash safety offered by the windshield is no longer in play.

 

[PNW_LJ]

A roll cages primary job is help the occupants walk away from an accident not the vehicle it is attached to. Most aftermarket components are going to leave something on the table and that may or not be important depending on the particular situation you are in at that moment.

Any cage design that could protect the windshield is also a cage that increases the physicality of the Jeep. Any Jeep that might benefit from not destroying the windshield is also a Jeep that would benefit from not adding to it's physical profile to snag on things. Meaning this cage is more trouble than it is worth and this cage creates more problems than it solves.

A comparison might be some of these bulky rock sliders with big tubes sticking down and out from them that catch more things now than before. Whereas a low profile mini boatside slider adds strength to the body and also reduces the bulk of the Jeep to the point that the slider may not be relied upon as often as a fatter slider would because it isn't getting in it's own way.

If you are concerned that much about the windshield, fold it down. Or better yet, remove it.

I’m not sure that’s the case. I look some of the trails we have up here, which I’d argue are some of the most damage inducing out there. There are trails/lines that are nearly guaranteed to give you body damage, no matter the rig or build level.

What you mentioned, an exoskeleton cage, I believe, is frequently used to prevent that sort of damage, and also damage from flops, that are also frequent in the area. These trails are also tight enough that if the added tubes were a detriment to the physical profile, it would’ve been discovered by now.

 

[PNW_LJ]

Right so folding it down in a stock application is a safety no go

Quite likely. But build in a race approved cage with all the accoutrements that make the Jeep obnoxious to use as a grocery getter, and the crash safety offered by the windshield is no longer in play.

An interesting feature of the new JL is that the windshield is no longer a structural part of the cage. The cage stays in place with it folded.

Meaning it can be folded down more easily, and without impacting the rollover safety. Unfortunately it messes up the open air experience you get if you’ve ever tried this on an JK or newer.

 

[PNW_LJ]

The JK gear and gadgets guy, on YouTube, is building a JK for KoH. His last episode was him starting the cage. He specifically said the windshield frame would be removed for the race.

I’m curious how the cage in the Savvy EMC LJ was setup. I’ll have to see what pics I can dig up. They kept the windshield frame, although it was modified for weight savings I believe.

 

[jjvw]

I’m curious how the cage in the Savvy EMC LJ was setup. I’ll have to see what pics I can dig up. They kept the windshield frame, although it was modified for weight savings I believe.

If that is the windshield I am thinking of, the frame was cut and stripped of everything that didn't retain the outward suggestion of a TJ windshield frame. there was nothing structural about it.

 

[jjvw]

I’m not sure that’s the case. I look some of the trails we have up here, which I’d argue are some of the most damage inducing out there. There are trails/lines that are nearly guaranteed to give you body damage, no matter the rig or build level.

What you mentioned, an exoskeleton cage, I believe, is frequently used to prevent that sort of damage, and also damage from flops, that are also frequent in the area. These trails are also tight enough that if the added tubes were a detriment to the physical profile, it would’ve been discovered by now.

We have a popular PNW build thread on here where, despite real compromises to the build, narrow axles were selected specifically because of the tight space restrictions you guys have out there. So, either the physicality of the Jeep matters, or it doesn't. If narrow axles are that necessary, so would trimming the bulk be in other areas.

 

[jjvw]

An interesting feature of the new JL is that the windshield is no longer a structural part of the cage. The cage stays in place with it folded.

View attachment 470280


Meaning it can be folded down more easily, and without impacting the rollover safety. Unfortunately it messes up the open air experience you get if you’ve ever tried this on an JK or newer.

Where are the limb lifters?

 

[PNW_LJ]

We have a popular PNW build thread on here where, despite real compromises to the build, narrow axles were selected specifically because of the tight space restrictions you guys have out there. So, either the physicality of the Jeep matters, or it doesn't. If narrow axles are that necessary, so would trimming the bulk be in other areas.

There is a difference between those two.

Here’s a typical Elbe yota build. At worst, the exoskeleton maybe robs a couple inches in some spaces. But when you inevitably lean into a tree, it’ll rub off the tube, rather than cause further body damage.


Since my Jeep is my daily, I don’t intend to do an exoskeleton. But I am doing what I can to minimize the physical space it takes up (which I am already at a disadvantage given the LJ).

Things like no rear flares, 0” front flares, spare delete, minimal bumpers, soft top etc. Maybe I would consider wider flares if I had 65” WMS+

 

[PNW_LJ]

Where are the limb lifters?

Too expensive, Jeep was charging $1500 for the electric ones.